Episode 3: Your Right People

We explore who your Right People are, how to figure out who your Right People are NOT, and talk about Right Relationship.

Mentioned in this episode:
Everyman, M. Shelly Conner

Rock The Boat, Resmaa Menakem

Conflict Is Not Abuse, Sarah Schulman

The Love Songs of WEB Dubois, Honorée Fanonne Jeffers

The Prophets, Robert Jones Jr.

Homegoing, Yaa Gyasi

How We Show Up, Mia Birdsong

Relationship Red Flags, Elizabeth M. Johnson

Annie Duke

Duped podcast

Toi Marie on the "impossibility of removing ourselves from a capitalist system."

Bruce Perry

The Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor

Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay

Larissa Parson 0:06

Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson, I'm a joy coach and a movement teacher and a total Star Wars nerd. Today I am delighting in this gorgeous autumn weather, and the fantastic night of sleep I got last night.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 0:23

And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a parent and partner, a rape survivor. And I've been working with abuse survivors for about 15 years, I write and talk about trauma, relationships and culture. And I am delighting in - I will use your word there, Larissa, - I took a really long walk this morning, and I was walking toward home and saw the sun come up in this beautiful pink, and orange and lavender burst. And I was like, "This is why I'm out this early walking in this direction!" And I'm still kind of feeling that in my bones.

Larissa Parson 0:58

I'm feeling that in my bones! It's almost enough to make me get up early and take a walk tomorrow. That's amazing. It was. So Wondermine is the limited series feminist podcast that looks at the "wow" and the "how" of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, this is the podcast for you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:28

And this is our third episode. We're all about being in community with like-minded people, whether that community is virtual or in person. So today, we're going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects: your right people.

Larissa Parson 1:44

But before we get started, let's get ourselves grounded and settled in with a real felt sense of what your right people are. So I want you to settle into whatever space you're in. If you're driving, don't close your eyes. If you're just sitting there, you don't have to close your eyes, either. You get permission to be in your body in whatever way feels really good right now. And I want you to imagine that you are hanging out with one of those people who sees you completely. And I want you to feel what it feels like in your body to be seen so well.

Then we're gonna take that feeling with us as we move on into our podcast. I feel so good. Doesn't it?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 2:40

It does feel so good. It is not hard for me to get there because I'm looking at one of those people right now.

Larissa Parson 2:46

I was just gonna say that!

Elizabeth M. Johnson 2:47

I took your line!

Larissa Parson 2:51

That is so fine. So I guess we should start with a quick check in before we move on. Let's see. So I am, as you all can hear, still recovering from this cold. And it has been quite a, an experience to have a real solid cold for a week. And to get used to things like coughing and not tasting things and all of that kind of stuff. I'm feeling like I'm coming out on the other side, and my kids got their first shots last night. And so feeling really good today about like the potential for seeing other people in the world in a much more delightful and less anxiety filled way. Ah

Elizabeth M. Johnson 3:44

I really feel that for you. That is so fabulous and such a huge, huge sense of relief.

Larissa Parson 3:50

Yes. How are you doing?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 3:53

I am good. I was coming off of like a really a couple of really beautiful email / text exchanges with some people who've been supporting me in a big project and just getting some really nice affirmation and feedback from them. And it was neat to have that as I go into this recording with you on right people so that was a really.. that was a nice, unexpected buffer. So I'm loving that right now.

Larissa Parson 4:25

Mmm! That sounds delicious. Yes. Yes. How wonderful

Elizabeth M. Johnson 4:29

So, so nice. Before we get into your right people, let's start off with what we always start off with what we are reading. Larissa, do you want to go first?

Larissa Parson 4:42

Sure. So I'm oscillating between a few books as is my usual, actually. So I picked up everyman on your recommendation--it is so good and I'm so loving it. And so like, still so sick that I read like three pages and then fall asleep. So it's really good. It's going slowly, but I'm really, really enjoying it. The themes in there are just tremendous. And I really like how so much of it resonates with me. That's great. And then the other thing that I'm reading is Resmaa Menakem's book _Rock the Boat_, which is all about using conflict to deepen relationships. And I find that to be really, really useful and interesting, as someone who is kind of naturally conflict averse. It is, it's, it takes the idea of conflict and the idea of like standing in your integrity during conflict, and lays them out and explain to here's how to do that. I haven't gotten to the how, yet. So I'm looking forward to. But it's such a good read. And it's so fun because it first came out in, I think, 2015. And so it's this precursor to _My Grandmother's Hands_. Yeah. And what it really helps do, I think in a really nice way is gives you a different sphere of reference for talking about things like clean pain and dirty pain. And it really helps me see more, even more clearly what he was getting at in _My Grandmother's Hands_. So that's great.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 6:17

Yeah, that's a great recommendation. We talked about that- I think- in a walk at one point, and I want to look that up. it's also- as you're saying this out loud- it's reminding me of a book that I have found incredibly helpful that it is not new. And my guess is your book is 2015, then the other book, probably I feel like it was like 2012 or 2013, when it kind of came my way. And it's called Conflict is not Abuse.

Larissa Parson 6:46

(intake of excited breath) love that book!

Elizabeth M. Johnson 6:46

So I will be - so we will talk- we will not get into this right now. Although it's very tempting, because you should see both of Larissa and my faces right now. But we will talk about this offline Larissa, and then we'll circle back to y'all if it feels like we need to share more about it. But a super fascinating book that this is reminding me of as you're talking about conflict and relationships. That is not something I'm reading right now. But something that I think is, it is a very pivotal, and yet very seldom referenced book when it comes to understanding abuse and conflict in relationships. So there's a lot there that I think is really very, very helpful for people.

Larissa Parson 7:29

I agree completely.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 7:30

Yeah, great. I am also I'm gonna I was gonna say, swerving, and that is really not the verb that one would hope for here because it sounds very fraught! But I'm going back and forth between a couple of books. But I had to stop in the middle of _The Love Songs of WEB Dubois_ by--wait for this name -- Honorée Fanonne Jeffers which may be the best name in the world. Fight me on this one! Because I think her name is so beautiful. I'm about halfway through. And the library is like "I need that book back. Because there's 28 people waiting!" and I'm like, "I've got 350 more pages, can I make it work?" And I'm like, "No, Elizabeth, you can't. Return the book already for people who deserve it." So I did. And I bought one. Which was fine, because this book is so outstanding. And it's outstanding in a very different way than _everyman_ a very different way than _The Prophets_ these books that I've been like, like, lauding, all year, but I'm like, "I have to own this book". I mean, it's like 750 pages. It's such a tome, Larissa. Like it's shocking, it is shocking how big this book is. It's heavy to carry. Anyway, it's phenomenal. And there's a lot going on. If you liked Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi, you might also like this, there's a lot of flipping between storylines and time periods. And it's coming together- I know it will - at the end. And it is just an epic that I am thrilled and delighted to be reading even though the content is sometimes hard as you might imagine, because somehow that's what I'm picking up in fiction these days. Anyway, fantastic. I cannot recommend this enough. And I know I said that a couple of weeks ago with everyman and I know my streak can't continue. But I am riding it for all it's worth right now because I can't even get over 2021 in the fiction books that I read. Hands down some of the best ones in my life.

Larissa Parson 9:43

That is quite the recommendation. Yes, we'll add it to my list. I love a 700 page book. And I gotta say I love my e-reader because of that. Yes. Great to just read and read for weeks.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 9:59

Yes. Just keep going, keep going.

Larissa Parson 10:02

Keep going,

Elizabeth M. Johnson 10:02

Just keep going.

Larissa Parson 10:04

So, oh, just reflecting on how we like to talk about books together. I feel like that is one of the ways that you and I know that we are right people in, like, for each other, that we... and (restarts sentence) it's so interesting for folks who are listening, who don't know us, as well. Like, we don't have the same taste in literature, we don't have the same taste in books, because Elizabeth reads way more nonfiction than I can possibly read in a year. And I read so much fiction, and I read so much very escapist fiction. But we still love talking about books together. Because it means that whatever Elizabeth's reading that I'm probably not going to read, she'll give me a summary of and then I can go, oh, that sounds interesting. Maybe I'll pick up a little bit of that, or I'll look for something shorter. Or I'll pick up the audio book, especially if it's nonfiction. And then I think some of our conversations around things like pleasure and shame have come up from talking about books, and talking about, like, I love to read a cheesy romance novel. And it took me a really long time to break through feeling shame about my choices of pleasure around what I was reading. So to make a somewhat awkward segue. We're talking about right people today. And we're talking about why they're your right people, how to know they’re your right people, who are not your right people, and anything else that we can add the words right people to.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 11:46

Yes, yes, because this is one of my favorite things to talk about. And I think it will, as we grow increasingly further away from each other, for whatever reason, I think this will only gain importance in my world and I am hoping-- by extension everyone else's-- as we start to sort of hopefully, shift our thinking from the-- and we're gonna dive right into Mia Birdsong and she references this phrase, a lot--toxic individualism. And hopefully shifting away from that towards this idea of like, we actually all do need each other. This is absolutely essential and important. And so I feel like at the heart of needing each other, we need the right people. And so we need, you need your right people. And that's where we're going right now.

So this topic of your right people is going to be informed by the work that I have done with abuse survivors, I've been working with the abuse survivors for 15 plus years, both one on one and standard sort of agencies. And then also in peer support groups, which I did for like five years prior to COVID. And, of course, my own research, but also the really beautiful and powerful book, _How We Show Up_ by Mia Birdsong. And I've been studying relationships for a really long time. And her book is really one of the only resources that I've come across, that looks at community, friendships, relationships, through a very intersectional lens. I feel like I can look, pick up a book at the library on friendships, and it will tell me why they are hard, how to get some and what stands in my way. But it's all about why I'm the problem, or comes from a real individual sort of lens. And this is where a lot of these books fall short. They often lack a trauma informed perspective, which for me in this conversation is really thinking about how does trust impact the relationships that we forge and are willing to forge with other people? So that's often missing, but also, they're also missing systems thinking like, what are all of these systems of oppression that impact and condition us in different ways to certain relationships or to avoid relationships? And so those books suck, and Mia Birdsong's does not: it's the exact opposite. It is excellent, excellent, excellent, and I cannot recommend it enough. So that said and shared. This topic also feels so important during given our pandemic. It's harder to be with each other, but it's more essential than it ever has been at any point in history. And I am going to go out on that limb. We're going to talk in depth a little bit more about why it matters. But I want to start with something that Mia Birdsong says, and I feel like this is at the heart of some of the work that Larissa and I are doing here together with Wondermine. Mia Birdsong says "freedom is both an individual and collective endeavor. A multi layered process being free is in part achieved by being connected."

Larissa Parson 15:11

Yes, we're done. Right, we'll just stop now.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 15:15

That's it. This is a very brief episode, everyone! (laughter)

Larissa Parson 15:19

Now go mull that over and report back, report back. Exactly. So, I love that book so much. It encapsulates so much of like describing the many ways in which we make family, and describing all of the ways that family doesn't have to just be the people that you are related to by blood, for lack of a better word. And that quote, in particular, to me, really highlights the importance of understanding that humans are interdependent beings, we don't thrive on our own. And that comes back to that idea of toxic individuality and, and just that, or the idea of like the, quote, self made man, unquote, right, or pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, or any of these other American myths of self reliance. And I think that one of the things that I really appreciate about _How We Show Up_ and just about thinking about relationships, and right people in general, is that no one relationship can possibly meet all of our different needs, our social needs, our emotional needs, physical mental health needs. And so in order to have all of our needs met, each person needs a multi layered web or fabric of connection to support them. And that seems like kind of what she's getting out there. Yes,

Elizabeth M. Johnson 16:55

Absolutely. Um, I want to bring in something that I talk a little bit about, and I think it's helpful to kind of give us this a little bit of a framework here. And it's something that I talk about: The Lasagna. Every decision that we make is made up of at least three ingredients, cheese, sauce, noodles. Cheese is our lived history, including social conditioning, and our trauma history. Sauce, is our culture, which includes things like systems of oppression. Noodles, is community, included in community are your right people. And those three basic ingredients for the lasagna. And your right people is what we're gonna be talking about today. And that's part of community, which are the noodles in the lasagna.

Larissa Parson 17:45

Cool. I love that image, because I feel like it meshes really nicely with my multi layered Web.

Elizabeth M. Johnson: Yes, yes, it does.

Larissa Parson: Yes, like, oh, lasagna, of course, is a much better way to think about this. But I love that you're tying this to decision making, because I feel like everything is this every day is this kind of endless list of decisions that we're constantly making, whether we're conscious of them or not. And I feel like a lot of the time, we're doing a lot of decision making based on what we call that cheese and sauce, cheese and sauce, cheese and sauce, cheese and sauce, cheese and sauce. And we looked through the noodles to help us get clarity on whether the cheese and sauce are actually good or have gone bad or the right thing at all. So (coughs) excuse me, I'm wondering if Is there a way to make this like, more concrete? Because I'm just trying to make I'm trying to tease out this image? Is that okay?

Elizabeth: Yes, absolutely.

Larissa: So like, if you're deciding to let's say, vaccinate your kid for COVID, this could be a controversial topic. But you know, I'm just throwing it out there as a decision that lots of people have been grappling with lately. So that cheese part of that is going to be your family of origin, the culture you grew up in, whether you got vaccinations for stuff as a kid, whether say, like my parents, my mom and my dad, both born kind of at the tail end of World War Two. So there is kind of this memory for them of polio and things like that. There was never any question that we were going to be vaccinated as kids. So that culture that I grew up in was already pro vaccination. But then also, there's kind of the culture, the bigger culture that you live in. So do you live in an area where the majority of people are choosing not to? Like that's also going to affect you? Is that Is that right? For cheese sauce, okay, yes. And then some of the sauce is also going to be things like the availability of information to you about what's in the vaccine, how does it work? What is going on? What are the side effects blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the accessibility of actually being able to go get the vaccine should you decide to vaccinate.

Elizabeth: Totally. Yep.

Larissa: Okay. And then the noodles. So that's your community. So again, that's going to kind of blur a little bit with a sauce. Is that right? Like in this decision making nexus here?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 20:12

Yes, I think it could. I mean, I think sometimes when I think about our noodles, they're there and they're a lot of different people. So you're right people are one segment of that community, but there's also social media contacts. Okay, so like, "what are your Facebook friends doing with this idea of vaccination?"

Larissa Parson 20:34

Right.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 20:34

It's also people like, maybe not necessarily true for you and I, but it's like, it's coworkers.

Larissa Parson 20:39

Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 20:39

You know, it's church community. You know, it's whoever is kind of, in your, in your orbit in terms of people. And this is why we're gonna get into why your right people are so so important, because we've got these other people in different pockets who will influence us to some extent. And we want to make sure that one of the things we're super listening to, are our right people when it comes to who really paying attention to who is influencing those decisions. Because if we're listening to a lot of like, people that we don't have a lot of connection with--and I want to get into like, what right people actually mean so we're grounding ourselves in a definition -but if we can get very easily distracted, and very easily kind of muddled, especially when we think about the system pieces of the sauce, of the news, all of these other pieces, because they're big influencers. And sometimes they're influencers and that means that they're the water that we're swimming.

Larissa Parson 21:35

Right, right. And so if we're looking at things like systemic oppression, and medical trauma, all of those things also become part of the lasagna. For us. We were deciding this kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. So that makes it a little more clear for me. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 21:50

Yes, absolutely.

So I want to share a definition of right people. And so your right people: " safe, trusted people with whom you can be real and honest. They're accessible, they see you and allow you to be seen, or will really help you be seen, they also give as much as they get." So this element of giving as much as you get, this reciprocity, is like one of the core essential pieces here.I can't underscore that enough, because the foundation of any right person relationship is people being on the equal power plane, equal power level. And so we have as much power between us as right people, you know, as we possibly can, we know there are other pieces that influence like the privileges that we have, and things like that but in the relationship, we are sharing power. There's not one of us, that is more powerful, and holds more weight and pole in the relationship than the other. And so that's kind of what I'm thinking about, right? So it can be someone like your chosen partner, could be a mentor, could be a sibling, it could be a friend, could be a colleague, some sort of professional association. Maybe it's like a church buddy, who knows? Afriend, meaning not a Facebook friend, but someone you actually have a contact with. Someone with whom you have an actual real relationship, that you will be checking in with and talking to if not seeing, that kind of thing. So that's the gist of who who your right people are, what that looks like.

Larissa Parson 23:36

So your group chat might also be right. Could be your group chat. It could be that maybe not everyone in your group chat is right people. Yeah. But mostly, usually, if you're chatting with them that much….

Elizabeth M. Johnson 23:49

That's a possibility. Yeah.

Larissa Parson 23:51

Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 23:54

That's fine. Who are they not? like who are not your right people? Because I think sometimes when I have shared like this definition, "they're safe and accessible, and they're trusted, they help you show up, they show up, they help you be seen, bla bla bla." All of these things, this back and forth. Give as much as they get all of that kind of beautiful stuff. People can be like, "oh my gosh, like, is that a real person? Do they really exist?" And yes, they absolutely do. But they are not often people who are a healthcare provider. They're not always family. Sometimes they're a sibling. They're not parents. They're not someone with whom you make an appointment to go see right? Because that is that is not an equal power level right there. They are not your boss. Okay, because then again, that's an unequal power situation.

So if they're, if they're showing up for you is conditional or limited in some capacity, maybe you need to make the appointment, maybe you can only see them on Sundays. Okay, then obviously accessibility is an issue so that there's another piece. That's a "no go" there, right? Maybe they only show up when you behave a certain way with them, you know, I've heard this from a number of survivors, "I have a great relationship with my mom when I do XYZ, but when I don't, then she can't be there or she, she drops the ball or she won't be there." If I have to perform or behave in a very specific way in order for this person to show up for me, that is not a right person. The conditionality is not something your right person would put on you. So that's, that's definitely a "no go". Maybe you can't be as honest as you would like to be because you are afraid someone would be hurt, they would hurt themselves, you would be blamed. You might blame yourself, you know, any of those things. This is another one where family comes up a lot, specially parents. So this is another "no go". Your right people can handle your honesty. You are not ever too much for your right people. They can handle your honesty without making it about them.

So if I tell Larissa tomorrow...you know I have a solid example and that's beautiful when it occurs to you in the moment! But I remember having a conversation with you, Larissa in early part of the summer and I'm like, "I've got this project idea with Peggy Mann," (That's something will go into it a different point!) And Larissa is like, "if you need space, if we need to delay the start of Wondermine, go for it." And this is a beautiful right person response. Because she's able to see what I am needing and saying and she's saying "I want you to show up and do this thing as much as you need to. Follow that rabbit hole. I will still be here on the other side, even though it kind of interferes a little bit with this idea that we had. I am extending this generosity to you because I see that this is important to you." So this is like a beautiful right person example.

So conditions, accessibility, power imbalance...none of those are reciprocity. Those are the opposite of reciprocal. If one person's doing the heavy lifting, that kind of thing. Those are not the right people for you, someone who has more power in the relationship than you is not a right person.

Larissa Parson 27:34

Yeah, not a right person. Yeah, yes, that totally makes sense. I was what I think I would like to dive into a little bit more and kind of dissect a little bit is so, like, you can have right people who are friends who are collaborators, who are co-workers. What about like, you have a really special relationship with a mentor, and you're able to, you know, like, get in touch with each other, outside of scheduled time? Is that a right person relationship? Or is that kind of more of a like? Well, that's, that's like, just different?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 28:14

That's a good question. And I think sometimes when I think of --and we've talked about coaches before, and I didn't mention mentors or coaches--But I think that certainly a coach can be one of your right people. You may need to make an appointment. But a good coach should make clear from the very beginning that they have no more power than you have. Right? "We are both learning together," A good coach will also be sharing their vulnerabilities with you, their client or person. A good coach shows up and does all of these other pieces. There may be this accessibility factor (needing to make an appointment) but that's, that's sort of like, a little bit of a splitting hairs thing, because the other things all generally seem to work, in my mind different than a therapist.

Larissa Parson 29:04

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 29:07

But someone like a mentor, it's a really interesting thing. I think, often times, there is that power differential, but there's not always. So I think we kind of need to look at the sort of the whole relationship and kind of look at these other pieces, like do the other things kind of fall into play? You know, are they giving as much as they're getting? Are they able to share vulnerabilities with you? They are absolutely like getting five stars for like the helping you show up. You know, but what about these other pieces, which really involves the reciprocity? And so I think that's maybe one of those things where we just kind of look at that on a case-by-case basis. When I think about a couple of mentors for me, they would be more of --what I'm going to get into -- a right relationship, than a right person. B ecause there is a power differential because I don't see vulnerabilities from them, because they show up for me in a really specific way. But I think it across the board, it might be helpful to sort of take it on a case by case basis.

Larissa Parson 30:14

That is super. Yes. Yeah, that's super helpful, because I feel like I have coaches and mentors who are right people. And I also have coaches and mentors who fall more into what you're going to talk about next. Right relationship? Yes. First, right. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 30:28

Yes. So in addition to right people, we have right relationships. And this is where we have a therapist come in, or a boss, or a physician, or like a healthcare provider come in. Or where a parent comes in. If everyone's like, "where are the parents?!" Sometimes people are not like, "where are the parents?" but sometimes they are. And this possibly could be where a parent comes in.

So they are an important person for you but there is an imbalance of power most of the time with these people. Imbalance of power does not equal reciprocity. There's an imbalance of power with your physician, your healthcare provider, physician, otherwise. There's an imbalance of power with your therapist, there's an imbalance of power with your parent. There's an imbalance of power with your boss, right? You know, and of course, the second they stop being your boss--because you leave that job and you go into something else--maybe then they become like a right person. But when you are in that boss/employee relationship, they could be a right relationship; they cannot be a right person, right.

So if you have ever lamented the fact -- and this is something that I have heard from abuse survivors that I've talked to, for a while-- that it can be very painful to come to the realization that your parents are not your right people. And absolutely, no matter what that relationship like is or was with those parents growing up, they will never be one of your right people. You could have been the most emotionally adjusted child, had the least trauma of anyone who's ever lived and have had this gorgeous, idyllic childhood, and your parents will never be your right person. They could be a right relationship, but they will never be a right person. The imbalance of power is too great.

The other piece is that they are not usually able to get over their fears and insecurities about you as their child in order to laud your hopes and dreams for you, for your sake. I mean, this is a side note -- but this is something I hope that I will be able to do as a parent. To be like, "You go kid of mine, and I'm going to stifle the fact that I want you to do X, Y, and Z and go here and do this because that's my thing. But I want you to do your thing." I don't know if I will be able to do it. That's really, really hard. Even if that does work, there's still always going to be an imbalance of power. Even my kid is like an adult, we will never be right people for each other, the best I can hope for as a parent, is to have a right relationship with my child. There's no one's parent out there that is their right person. So parent can never be your right person, they can be a right relationship.

Larissa Parson 33:16

Right? That makes so much sense to me. And I feel like actually approaching the parent child relationship in this way, takes so much pressure off of me as a parent, I don't need to be my kids’ best friend. Because they are going to have their own right people. And I can develop a right relationship with them, where I see them, I amplify them. And maybe that's the right word for that. Support them with their interests, and, and be present when they need me, but also recognize that what I say is going to have a different weight for them than something somebody else says to them. Yeah, and that is so good.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 34:00

Yeah. love how you're saying that this lifts something off the pressure off of the relationship to be something that it really cannot be. It's sort of like, I mean you could use an analogy with diet culture. Like there's one body type that is supposed to be The One. But we know that pretty much no one can ever get to no matter what the situation is or no matter what they go through. Right? So the idea that here's this beautiful layer of permission that I'm giving you, you know, that your parent will never be your right person can ideally help this relationship be stronger, healthier, and without that added layer of like "it's got to be this way,"

Larissa Parson 34:43

Right. Exactly. Exactly. It's such a nice piece of permission. Thank you, I guess (laughs).

Elizabeth M. Johnson 34:49

I like it.

Larissa Parson 34:51

It feels good. Okay, so, so we know who are right people aren't. And we have an idea of what right relationship means. How do we know who our right people are? Or what our right relationships are?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 35:10

Yes, so this is a really crucial piece. And I like to look at my ebook _Relationship Red Flags_ because while it's generally geared towards dating, again or if you're thinking of getting involved in someone, in more of an intimate way with someone, "here's some things to think about when it comes to what you want to be looking for." But I do say that the relationship red flags that are in there-- and this is what we're going to get into a little bit here --are really helpful for identifying toxic people, bullies, not just abusers.

So one that is really important is control. So if people want you to change, they want you to be different than what they then who you are, even if that's and I'm going to be using like some air quotes here, even if that's "normal" even if that's "unmedicated", even if that's" cured," right? This is not a right person or a right relationship. If you want those things for yourself, you Larissa are saying, "I want to be unmedicated/cured/ normal," whatever those things are, I support you 100%. But if I want that for you, that is a control piece. Not a right person. Because that idea of trying to impose my values or belief system on you is a form of control. And that often goes along with other things like, "I'm the one who makes all the choices on what our podcast topics are," or "we're only going to go here when we walk," . or "we're going to do these things" Conditions or parameters around the relationship. So that, as you can hear from those examples, that's really imbalanced. And if there's an imbalance in the relationship, again, we go back to, a wonky power dynamic. That's not a right person power dynamic. Because right, people are always on the exact same level, not exact like a science. I mean, someone might have more in certain moments than another, you know, but for the most part, you would consider yourself an equal with that person. So control is a big one.

Larissa Parson 37:44

Yeah, gotcha. So like, to go back to the example of “where do we walk” or, “what are we going to have?” I'm like, I'm somebody who loves to concede my control, cede my control, cede my control to someone else. I love to say, Elizabeth, you pick where we walk? You know, I love that. Yeah, but at the same time, you know, like to give a flip side example. But I'm choosing to do that, and you're choosing to say, that's fine.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 38:12

Exactly Larissa. "I'm not saying let's do this,"

Larissa Parson 38:16

Right.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 38:17

There's a piece where you are you, you still have the autonomy to say, "I want to do this... for you make that choice? I don't care."

Larissa Parson 38:23

Exactly. Whereas on the other hand, so let's say you have a parent who constantly pointing out your flaws. That's not your right person. Right? Like, oh, you need to do this to be a good person, you need to do this to you know, you should do this. You're calling to complain about something trivial, maybe? “Well, yeah, this is how you should solve that problem.” I just wanted to be heard. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 38:49

And that's a bit of a control thing, right? Yeah. Like I --and that in that also gets back to --why the parents are, why it's impossible for them to be a right person. Because they are often hearing your pain and they want to fix it right now. Instead of just allowing there to be space for you to talk about the painful thing, and then move on because you're not calling for a solution. Otherwise, you have said "help me fix this."

Larissa Parson 39:12

Right.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 39:15

So language, another relationship red flag that's applicable here for figuring out who our right people are and right relationships. We're always looking at extremes, like outlier kind of situations, you know. Someone who does all the talking,disclosing sharing. They are or, or really want to own how things are shared, or who does the sharing. So it might not be me telling you all of these things. It might be you saying, "tell me all about that. Or tell me about that. You've talked about being a trauma survivor. You talked about being a rape survivor. When was that? When did that happen?? You know, and that's and this can seem, perhaps for those trauma survivors who've not been in this situation as like, "oh, that's so screwed up, like who would say that?" But this is something that happens to trauma survivors, often, especially in new relationship. It's often seen as like a test. Like, if you really trusted me, you would tell me this information. And it's a test you cannot ever win. Because no one who is your right person with whom you would feel safe and healthy with whatever puts you in a position of having to disclose your trauma history to them.

So language is something that's really important to pay attention to here. And but also language that might feels more accessible to some of us who, who have been dating recently. It's like the guy that you're sitting next to, or the person that you're sitting next to who just does all of the talking about themselves, you ask a question, and it becomes another 20 minute thing to talk about themselves. So that's another cue of like language, right? It's "me" and "I and it's very centered on themselves. But also those people obviously, who were urging you to tell them the whole story or be the one knows all about you, or you should be telling them every sexual partner that you've ever had, or like, like disclosing this, like this kind of pressure to disclose this information? So a huge tell. I think that's like a card game term?

Larissa Parson 41:39

Yes.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 41:40

I'm not sure where this has come up over, but which I don't know how to play. But like a huge towel. I know where it is. It's because I was reading something in reference to Annie Duke who was talking about cards. She's a poker player, apparently.

A huge tell is always reciprocity. I could test Larissa on this 1000 times whenever we see each other. And she's always like, winning, winning, winning, because it goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So remember that piece in the definition, they're giving as much as they're getting, they're seeing you and they're helping you be seen. Okay. So in both of those relationship red flags examples, language and control, there's an imbalance of power, there's a lack of reciprocity, which leads to that imbalance of power. And an imbalance of power is not necessarily a bad thing, right? Because we think about a therapist relationship, not necessarily a bad thing. Okay, but the therapist is a right relationship. So it's not necessarily a bad thing, and they're not a right person. So right relationships, we might think of often as a little bit more transactional, and not necessarily a bad thing.

Larissa Parson 42:47

Right? Right. So I love that, that that side, or that bit, you just added in that right relationships are often more transactional, it's not always a bad thing. Because I think so often, we are conditioned to think of transactional relationships as a bad thing. I pay you: I get therapy,that's freaking awesome. Like, how wonderful is it to go to the therapist and be able to be you're, like, full on ugly crying and talking about all this stuff. And they're holding space for that. And it's not going to, you know, you get to take up all the air, and it's fine. Sometimes it's nice to have that space where you're, you're not trying to do the reciprocity dance, because you need that space. And it's great to pay somebody to hold it for you. Yes. And, and I also kind of feel like, there's this idea in our culture, too, that you know, like this idea that all of our friends need to be our besties. And that's also not true. I don't want to have that kind of relationship with every single person I know, as an extrovert, I would just like...my inner introvert would come out and run screaming away from all of that, because it's just too much. And then I want to pick up one other thing that you said about reciprocity, because I feel like it is really important that the your right people, they not only see you, but they help you be seen. And I feel like that is not just on kind of like, oh, I link to my friends thing when they're doing something interesting. But also in that being seen to yourself way where they're reflecting back. This is what I see in you and being seen by yourself is also a powerful, powerful thing. Yes. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 44:50

Yeah. And, and to your point, thank you. And to your point that this could be incredibly exhausting if we had this relationship with SO many people, right? I think that you know, we don't have 40 right people, right? So I think that that's, it is so beautiful if you can find that therapist, if you have the privilege of paying for that, you know, if you have all the pieces, then yes, that's lovely. So just to just sort of wrap up some of those highlights of right people. Someone you speak honestly to, you're not fearing repercussions or rejection or betrayal that's kind of the equal of safe and trusted. That's like key for survivors. Key, key, key. Safe, safe, safe, safe, we've got to feel safe. Someone who shows up for you in a way that's helpful to you. That's kind of self explanatory. But feels important. Someone who's shining your light, sharing your stuff, mirroring back to you how you were what you were saying what you were feeling exactly as you just said, Larissa, someone you can get a hold of. So it's the accessibility piece. If you were to text them and say like, "I need you or I need help right now, or I need someone to just hear this," they are going to get back to you pretty quickly. Again, main thing, you're on an equal power level with this person.

Larissa Parson 46:10

Yeah, all of those. I love all of those so much. It makes it so easy to kind of start making those distinctions between right people, not right people. I really love shows up in a way that's helpful to you. Not shows up in a way that's helpful the way they think that being helpful is helpful, but in a way that is actually helpful to you. So I think about that, like that first fancy coffee that I got to have after my surgery, and we just walked really slowly in the woods. And that was helpful to me because I needed to be out of my house. And I wanted to feel like I had something that was like a treat. That felt special. And you really got that

Elizabeth M. Johnson 46:48

Yeah.

Larissa Parson 46:49

That's beautiful.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 46:50

Yes. That's a great example. I love it.

Larissa Parson 46:53

Yeah, I can think of like 100 examples with you, Elizabeth.

So, like, what gets in the way, though, of finding our right people? I mean, we got really lucky. I feel like...

Elizabeth M. Johnson 47:11

Yes. But also we can think too about.. there's been an intentionality.

Larissa Parson 47:17

Yes.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 47:17

There's been time that we have spent, continued bits of time, over time, even since before we started walking, like before the past year. And there's an energy put towards this.

Larissa Parson 47:36

Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 47:37

So yes, yeah. But this is, I think, where culture does get in the way. And so Mia Birdsong, going back to her says, "we don't build connection because we are fundamentally connected to the American dream." Yikes, that's a horrifying thought, actually. Sorry, that's not Mia Birdsong saying that, that's me, Elizabeth

laughter.

Larissa Parson 47:56

laughter.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 47:58

She does say, "the American Dream tries to keep us apart by telling us that we're out here on our own."

Larissa Parson 48:07

Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 48:09

That is so frightening.

Larissa Parson 48:12

It's terrifying.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 48:14

And it's totally true. It is totally true. I mean, how many times have I talked to survivors and the rest of the world basically, and if I can get to this piece of this vulnerability exchange --which we'll talk about in a second-- it's like, "I am the one who's got to make this happen. I, it's, it's on me, you know? And it's just like, dear lord, no, like, it can't be right. Because then you're screwed. Because it can't just be on me..or you. Right?

Yeah, we know this from so many different situations. When I broke my foot and people showing up for me and dropping off food. And when you were recovering from surgery, you know, there's just --again, helping us on our terms of what's helpful to us --but we cannot do anything alone.

Larissa Parson 48:55

No, we can't. We can't. That's all I got. That's a mic drop.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 49:01

That's great. Bang! So systems of oppression in general are a huge problem. Capitalism tells us there's value in what we pay for too. So it's like, "you get what you pay for!" So I'm not paying for there's no money exchanged between Larissa and I so it's like "is this friendship of value?" No, capitalism would say, because there's no money. There's no value in this, right? Because this podcast doesn't generate any money, you are not paying each other in any way. Like what's.... You're producing something so there's value there. But when it gets right down to it, they (capitalism) would say that there's not a lot of value in this relationship.

You know so we learn this idea that we pay for something it makes desired, it makes it worthwhile. You know, this is why we get into this sort of like, this "don't work for free," kind of thing which I know Michelle and Maggie over at "Duped" (podcast) have talked about, these messages we're given that can be problematic. But we shouldn't have to pay someone in order for them to show up for us or believe us. I should just be able to text Larissa or Nikki Nicole and say, "I need help, I need support or I am just stuck." And someone should be able to show up for us.

So through things like patriarchy we learn --and Mia Birdsong talks about this a lot, and I love how she talks about this -- we learn that really valued relationships in our culture is marriage. Marriage is a highly valued, highly socially commodified. Marriage is a socially accepted status symbol. I mean, it's like really, this is a goal that we should all be sort of shooting for.

Larissa Parson 50:31

Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 50:32

Obviously, we know that's completely bogus. And what is does is it puts anyone who has been divorced or is single in this lower kind of status class, which is also incredibly f****ed up, which I can't stand. And of course, trauma: trauma affects affects our ability, and desire to trust. And I think everyone's a trauma survivor -so this feels relevant for all of us listening. But then, of course, small things like we're really busy people, we're managing several things. We're in a pandemic, doing social, doing less, fewer social activities than then we might normally have been anyway. So lots of things impact us being able to find our right people.

Larissa Parson 51:17

Yes, yeah. Um, I guess, gosh, there's so much to unpack and all of that. And I don't want yeah, sorry. We don't need to go for an hour and a half. Today, however, like, I guess one of the things I'll pick up on there is I mean, first of all, the the way that marriage is seen is kind of the gold prize, whatever, really, lessons and cheapens? I think that's the right, cheapens is possibly the right word, friendship, and also other kinds of romantic relationships, all kinds of different ways of being with your people in the right way for them. And I feel like that's important to pay attention to. And the other thing I keep thinking about is how, like you mentioned, the pandemic, and how that's affected our ability to connect with people. And like, so much of the last year and a half, has been constant decision making about risk. And making plans to mitigate that risk, and sending lots of texts that are like, I have a runny nose, and I can't meet up with you. First, I'm gonna go get a PCR test. And, you know, like, kind of all of those, those decisions. And you're right people are the ones who understand your level of risk tolerance and respect it. Mm hmm. Um, and, but it's also really hard if you are in a situation where you need to meet some new people, for whatever reason, that pandemic has shown a lot of us that a lot of people we thought were our right people or not our right people. So you might need some new friends. So how do we find our right people, despite all of the things that, you know, make so many people wrong for us?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 53:09

Right.

I want to say again, the trauma makes all of this very hard. Yeah, it's very hard, it makes it very hard to trust. And, great, it feels important to say "yes" to everything that you just said about the pandemic, and all of these pieces around risk assessment that we've been doing for a while. So that also makes it hard and exhausting. But if it feels if you are out there listening to this, and it's feels impossible to find those people or to like that you feel like you're the only one without like a bestie out there, you are not alone. There are plenty of people that you are in very good company with for many reasons. So when I start there.

So I think one thing is that time is definitely a factor. And I just sort of alluded to this when I said you know you and I had been pretty intentional about staying in touch and doing things and being with each other even if not physically in the presence of the other person for a long period, for an intentional amount of time we've been doing this. So no one really wants to hear --you know this from your own work right Larissa? -- like no one really wants to hear like we need to take some time. But our culture tells us that fast is best and fast is never better when it comes to relationships. Like I stake my life on this: best is not good when it comes to relationships. So things are escalating, escalating, going really, really fast, that is a huge red flag. No matter who you are with, fast is not better. But we are in a culture which tells us that fast actually is better.

Larissa Parson 54:56

Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 54:58

But it does take time to figure out who our right people. You know, when you and I started walking or eating when we first met, I'm not sure I would have said "Larissa is my right person, right?" That's something that comes out after time. So time is a big one. And I know that's kind of an unsatisfying answer in many ways. But there it is.

And noticing. Noticing is another big one. This is really hard. Because I do know that we are all very busy. And noticing takes a moment. We're noticing who shows up for us, we're noticing the words that they say to us, we're noticing who bothers to check on us. We are noticing who I mean. And let's be real we're on social media - we're noticing who likes, who comments, who shares, we're noticing all of these things. And Larissa, I really think that you're kind of like a queen of noticing. And you are a queen of encouraging others to pause and notice their own things that are going on. Anything you want to add about the noticing piece?

Larissa Parson 56:00

I think that it's really important to distinguish noticing from judging, a lot of the time, when we start a noticing practice, we start with judgment. And so like, take it to the body. And the work I do with bodies. A lot of the time, one of the first things that I ask people to do is just be aware of where their pelvis is in space, as they go through about their day, not all day, not, you know, nothing like that. Just pay attention to it. And that is a really intentional choice of language, as opposed to bring your pelvis to a neutral position throughout the day. That's judging that saying something's wrong with you. And so when we're noticing who's showing up and noticing, who's, who's checking and noticing, who's liking and commenting, and sharing, that also has to go along with not necessarily dismissing and judging the folks who may be you maybe I need to check in on them, because maybe they are in need of something that they don't have right now. Or maybe I don't need to check in with them. Maybe it's like, you know, that kind of judgmental, so and so didn't like my post? Well, that's okay, you're just noticing that they didn't like it. And they either are busy with their own stuff, or they're not your right people, or both. Or maybe they are the right people. And they are, you know, in the hospital, like right knows it. Like, there's so many factors. And so noticing is that like consistently paying attention without attaching a lot of like, judgment, to what you're noticing until you see the other parts of what you say, Elizabeth? So like that you have this time where they've been showing up more regularly, for example.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 57:48

Yeah. And I think for trauma survivors--I mean, one of the things that I picked up on in what you're saying is the judging sounds like a command, which immediately makes me recoil.

Larissa Parson 58:00

Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 58:00

So if you tell me to keep my pelvis in a neutral position, as opposed to notice how your pelvis is feeling, notice where your pelvis is during the day, or that language that you just said, yeah, that immediately makes me-- I mean, I'm a questioner so I hate being given an ultimatum like that anyway--but like, no, no, no. But the other piece is that language sounds like command. And a command is a huge red flag in like a million other areas, because it's about control. And it's about language. It's like telling the patient just disrobe and sit on the bench, or table. No, no, no. We invite people to do things like this. And they can say no. So a command is always like, No, I back up six feet from that kind of thing.

So noticing, I love that what you're saying about the judging, because that brings up something else. I also want to say test, and this is not a bad thing. We test people all the time, and you do it all the time. You might not be comfortable saying you are testing someone and that's totally fine. But when you share something with them, you are testing them. I offer out a vulnerability statement to Larissa and I see how she responds to that. And she offers one to me. And we go back and forth. And that's this beautiful vulnerability exchange. You know, I told my neighbor, that my daughter is like afraid of needles, and it feels like she's the only child in America who's afraid of needles, but wow, so excited to get her COVID vaccine. Yeah, my kid is not that kid. My kid is afraid. And it does not matter what she's getting vaccinated for. And then my neighbor's like, "Oh, I heard about this really fabulous thing." And she gave me the information. And so she heard what I was saying, acknowledged that and then she was like, "here's the resource that I came across my thought might be helpful to you,". We test people all the time, whether we're conscious of it or not, and we give them a vulnerability statement. It's a brave offer of a big, personal truth. Yeah, the intention of connecting with someone to feel supported or more heard. And then that leads to these vulnerability chain exchanges again, and that's reciprocity in action. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

Larissa Parson 1:00:23

Yeah, yeah. And it goes back and forth. And that's, that's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And it happens that way. Because you know, that you also will have the opportunity to be the person who shows up and give support. Like, it's not that you're just always getting getting getting. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:00:40

So why does all this matter? Like, why are we bothering with this? Why does this, who cares? So I want to bring in our previous episode on pleasure, and if you've not listened to this, you now need to go back and listen to it because Larissa said that "you're right people, being with your right people, helps your body receive those pleasures that you're noticing with a little bit more. It's like having an amplifier or a microphone." Bang. Does everyone remember that pearl? I loved that. So like small, maybe big p pleasure right there. They feel more satisfying with someone. The latte that I brought Larissa, when we went on a very slow walk in the woods behind her house probably tasted all the sweeter, because I brought it to her and I was with her.

Larissa Parson 1:01:29

Definitely.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:01:30

Great! I was hoping you'd be like, "yes, it did". I mean, we know this on a very basic level. Anyone who actually likes to eat--and there's people out there who are listening, like could care, they just eat to whatever to keep the fuel through the day, I don't know that feeling but there are people like that out there so this analogy will not work for them-but you know how gorgeous it feels on every possible level when you are sharing a meal with someone who also loves to eat like you do. It is so much more satisfying. So there's there's that piece, that's one reason why we bother because other people amp it up for us.

Larissa Parson 1:02:15

Yes, yes. And, and I think that goes back to the idea of interdependency. And this multi layer of support. Like, it's, it's not just that our right people, let us keep going along in our little individual bubbles, it's that they enhance and make our life so much better. And this is also kind of making me think that we need a food date.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:02:38

Yes, that's a great idea. Write that down. Write that down right now. (laughter)

I will also say that other right people, because we are social creatures, and we talked about this, that they get go make us feel less alone. They make us feel like we're not the only one, or we're not the crazy one. Or we are --whatever word that we would use to talk about ourselves in our most vulnerable darkest point, you know, -- whether we would say that we're broken or damaged or whatever, when we are with other people. And we share those vulnerabilities with them. We share that vulnerability, we know immediately that they feel us, they hear us they see us and they're kind of giving that back to us. And they're also like "you're not the only one," You are not the only one not ever. Back to Mia Birdsong who says "American Dreamism suggests that healing from trauma is a solitary process that survivors have to take charge of and move forward on their own. " And I don't think she's ever done any work with trauma survivors, but she is so on target. I can't tell you how many survivors I have talked to in support group, we're like, "I got to do this, I got to fix this, this journey is my own." And it's a beautiful thing to to own the path that we are on. And for people who are healing--we need other people so desperately! We heal in community. That is one of the ways that we heal.

Just to sort of start to wrap us up here Toi Marie. She talks about the "impossibility of removing ourselves from a capitalist system." Like we can't do that, right? We live in work in this capitalist system. But we can notice where and how we are showing up in that system and ask ourselves if there's something that we can do differently. It's another it's one of these "yes/and". So I love that idea. So this is a reason to bother.

And I'm gonna give you one more thing with Bruce Perry who, you know, pretty much I love. And he says "relationships are the key to healing.” And I mean, I feel like if Bruce Perry says this, and I could say all day long. Because Bruce Perry is like.... just Okay, we're gonna link to him in the show notes. I can talk about Bruce Perry all day long and like how much of an impact on my life and work. (laughter)

Anyway, he is a trauma expert and has dealt with a lot of children going through trauma. But he also wrote this really incredible new book with Oprah Winfrey, which is wonderful. Relationships are the key to healing. This is so so crucial. I don't want to belabor the point but he says "your connectedness to other people is so key to buffering any current stressor and to healing from past trauma". And I think that is so so right. Being and belonging with your right people.

Larissa Parson 1:05:39

Yes. Gosh, oh, there's so much goodness in all of those quotes.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:05:45

Yes. So a lot, probably to add at the end. But I felt like, (makes sound of pleasure) that I just wanted to put them there.

Larissa Parson 1:05:49

their immediate family. Substantial. Sorry. Yes. Substantial. Not not a metaphor. Yeah. I feel like I want to bring in one more person. Wow. Like, let's make it a party. just keep going

When I think about all of this, I somehow every time I'm like scribbling on my little paper here, like Oh, Sonya Renee Taylor, and radical self love. It's not something you do by yourself. Even though it's called self love. It's something you do in community. And radical self love is this gateway to everybody's radical self love. Everybody getting to be in a world that believes they are worthy. And like, your right people are the people who help you move toward that. And that's all I got to say about that. You're right, people help you heal from past trauma. They help you be present with your life as it is right now. And they see you for the light that you are.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:06:55

Yeah. And amplifying all of those pleasures that you are taking part in -- because we talked about the importance of pleasure last week--Yes. All of that. Bang!

Larissa Parson 1:07:04

All of that. Right people. So magical.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:07:08

Magical. Yeah. Um, do you wanna close by what we're eating this week, or what we're currently eating? Or what we're gonna be eating?

Larissa Parson 1:07:19

What are we eating this week, Elizabeth?

I'll start, I’m happy to start.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:07:25

That's right. But you're not tasting things!

Larissa Parson 1:07:28

Nothing I have eaten has been amazingly delicious to me this week. However, I've got my sense of smell and taste, but it is still so congested. It's really hard to really take deep pleasure in food. However, when we went walking Tuesday night, and I got my white peppermint mocha. That made me so happy because I could taste it. Because peppermint cuts right through all that. And it's sweet. And it's delicious. And we're walking, and I wasn't cooped up in my bed. So that's the thing I'm thinking about about what I'm eating this week. Again, as usual, have no idea what I'm picking up on my CSA tonight. So I'll be really surprised by that. Beautiful. Yeah. What about you?

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:08:12

Not sure what I've been eating. I mean, I know what I've been eating. But it hasn't necessarily been anything remarkable. Often on Friday mornings, we are going to order from Monuts. So I'm excited to do that tomorrow. And I'm thinking about getting one of their quiches which are absolutely delicious. Which you know, because one of your kiddos can eat a whole occasion a couple of days to two days. Love that. Yes. So their quiches are delicious. It's something that both my husband and I like, and the child passes, but she'll have like 3000 doughnuts. So that'll all work out really nicely. So I think that's something I'm looking forward to this weekend. Yeah, to ordering and having that as something that's in my fridge is sort of like a thing that I can go to that I have not made because I feel like I've been doing a lot of cooking and baking and I'm eager to take a break from that.

Larissa Parson 1:09:00

I understand that I am taking a break right now. But I guess you know, I love it. Well.

Elizabeth M. Johnson 1:09:08

So thanks for being here. Please consider sharing Wondermine with friends or writing us a review wherever you find your podcast and that will help other people find us.

Larissa Parson 1:09:18

And until next time, you can follow us on @wonderminepodcast on Instagram. Thanks so much for being here.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Wondermine

Episode 3: Your Right People

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