Wondermine
Wondermine
Season 2, Episode 1: The Things We Don't Talk About And Why
Welcome back to another season of Wondermine! For Season Two, we're talking about things we don't talk about...and why we don't talk about them. Episode One: Elizabeth and Larissa share why they're focusing on this theme.
Show notes:
Johann Hari’s newest book “Stolen Focus”
Dread Nation by Justina Ireland
“Marriage Requires Amnesia.” by Heather Havrilesky
Foreverland, Heather Havrilesky
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Two. I'm Larissa Parson, I'm a joy coach, a movement teacher, a writer and podcaster, a mom to twins, a bit of a hippie and maybe it is a lot to just be all of those things.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think it is a lot. I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a parent, a partner, a rape survivor and writer. I talk and write about relationships, trauma and decision making.
Larissa Parson:And if you are new here, Hello. We are the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the Wow and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:If you would like to support the show, thank you. You can do that by visiting patreon.com/wondermine. And if you don't want to, that's okay, too. We're just glad you're here. So today, the first episode of the second season, we are I feel like we need to celebrate that a little bit. Like I wanted to do something but like it was in your it was in your intro, so I kind of held myself back from my like, big whoop of cheer. I don't know if we thought there was going to be a second season. But I think halfway through the first one we decided there had to be. So yeah, here we are. Yes. And thanks to all of those people out there who have encouraged us to do a second season who have continually reached out and said that they were listening and that they shared the podcast. That really means a lot to us and absolutely influenced us wanting to get together and plan a season two. So here we are.
Larissa Parson:And here we are. So exciting. Thank you, everyone. So, today we are going to be getting pretty meta. We are talking about what we don't talk about and why.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:{Elizabeth imitating Jaws theme music} That's my doomsday music. Clearly I have a limited range. Although maybe doomsday music is not what should come to mind. I don't know. Hmm. We'll see by the end of the episode, maybe or the end of the season
Larissa Parson:or the end of the season! Oh my gosh. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. That's a secret. Okay, before we get started. Let's talk about what we are reading. Elizabeth, what are you reading? Because this is our thing. We got to start with what we're reading.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. So every episode, we start with what we're reading, and we end with what we're eating. And so I am reading Johann Hari's newest book, Stolen Focus: Why You Can't Pay Attention And How to Think Deeply Again. This is Hari's third book. I did not read this first one, which talks about the war on drugs. I did love and highly recommend his second one, Lost Connections, about the roots of addiction. I feel like Hari has had his focus stolen here. I hate to be making these really bad puns, but this book is not as tight as his previous books. That said, there's a lot of really great stuff in here. And he goes deep into the idea of why we as a culture are having a harder time focusing than ever. Spoiler, it's not just technology, although that is a factor. The attention issue has progressively gotten worse through the decades. One of the things that I do really like about Hari is that he consistently shows up in his books. He does have a real sort of sense of humility about himself. He *is* a white male, but not American. And I think that helps. He is also not someone who comes from a very privileged background. And so he often talks about himself saying, "I'm as guilty as the next person of being on my phone for hours a day," or "I'm as guilty as the next person of not building community,". So he does bring himself into the book in a very strong way. I think that's pretty unusual, especially for nonfiction writers, especially for men. People who write nonfiction seem to think that this (bringing themelf into the book) is going to discredit their their work. I could not disagree more. So one of the things I do like about Hari is that he's in there and he's really, he's really honest about who he is and where he is in this piece that he's struggling with, or that he's studying. I recommend with some reservation. It's not his strongest, but there are solid aspects to it. He's got some pieces in there that we can do. But also he does a really nice job of acknowledging the systemic issues that are getting in the way. He is not a parent, he is not a partner but he includes those perspectives in different ways, for example. And he interviews people who ask him to consider what the solution would be for the person who was working three jobs? He could do that way better, of course, but it is in there. So something that might be of interest.
Larissa Parson:Cool. Um, I can tell you all right, now that I will probably continue to get the Cliff's Notes from Elizabeth about it, because of my inability to focus on nonfiction for very long, but it sounds like I mean, it sounds like it's a really interesting book, and that it has some useful practical things. Also, if remembering correctly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Which is not always common, frankly. I feel like this is one of my beefs that I often have with nonfiction. There's this really incredible work that's extremely well resourced. And then at the end, there's maybe a couple of pages of solutions or ideas. And that's weak, in my mind. Hari is very clear about what he did and how it helped him. *And* he discusses bigger pieces that we really need to be looking at structurally.
Larissa Parson:Cool. Very cool. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What about you?
Larissa Parson:Ah, so I have about 1000 books going right now, including some nonfiction that I kind of really slowly, like, keep putting on my to do list read two chapters of and then not reading. That's okay. It's there. It's like in my face next to my bed. My main read right now is 'Dread Nation' by Justina Ireland. And so far I'm about a quarter of the way through it is a compelling YA story about a black girl training to fight zombies in post Civil War-ish America, it mostly seems like the zombies would won the war. And, and slavery gets outlawed or not outlawed. That's not the right word - stops or ends because of the war, but there is still a really, really very clear delineation and societal roles between races. And they're like all kinds of political parties. You can see a lot of allegory in there to post 2017 America. You can see, like, there's a still there's just a lot that I'm like, hmmm. Or really actually any pick a year America, to be quite honest. But some of it seems to be referring to things that I can't tell you what year was published. So, you know, go do your own research about what it could actually be about. It's enjoyable. It's a really fun read. I like the main character. Zombies aren't really one of the tropes that I love a lot. I tend to go for more like vampires, witches, fairies, and stuff like that. But it's an interesting, it's an interesting choice and makes for some really interesting opportunities in terms of talking about things like contagion and plague, and how we wall ourselves off from different things, and who do we protect? And who does the protecting? Whom do we protect? And all of that, so it's a really interesting book from that perspective, as well. So I'm enjoying it. It's a good read.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Is this the first book that you've read from this person?
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay. Yeah, I will say I picked it up my, my friend, I went to book club a few weeks ago, my friend had this book on her table, and she's like, I got this out of the little free library, and it was really good. Do you want to read it? And I was like, Oh, I'll get that from the library onto my Kindle. So I'll actually I'm actually not sure we've had two, as different books we've read it but yes, I would love to read it. So yeah, okay. been reading as we have right now. I'm not sure these could be any more different, frankly. So that may be our challenge for future episodes, but these are extremely different and details in the show notes. I'm just marveling at that...that big difference here. So, let's get back to talking about things we don't talk about and why. Larissa, do you want to talk a little bit about where this topic came from?
Larissa Parson:Sure, sure. I feel like I have to acknowledge that today's episode is a really good example of how different our literary tastes are. So, back to the topic. We came up with this topic or this idea when an excerpt from Heather Havrilesky's book Foreverland, was published in the New York Times with the title, "Marriage Requires Amnesia". And there were so many different responses to this piece from all over the internet, and every person that I talked to who'd read it had a different take on it. Really there were two main takes like,'Oh, she hates her husband so much she should divorce him' or'no, this is a sweet and loving portrait of a marriage'. So, it was like how awful it was, or how hilarious and true it was. And it really depended on who you were and your perspective on things and your sense of like, how do the things that we feel and the way that we talk about things matter when we read things and think about people in our lives? I don't know if that's a really clear way of putting that but like, you know, do we value sincerity and earnestness when we talk about relationships or do we have to step back a little bit and be sarcastic and removed in order to show love. So anyway, there was even a long piece about how nobody close reads anymore. And it kind of centered actually, on this, this excerpt. And it was a big long argument that basically no one understands how tone works anymore. Like we don't get tone. And it's true that it is sometimes hard to read for tone, especially online, especially scrolling on your phone, especially with 500 other things distracting you. Sure, I will grant that. But I think what was really interesting to me and Elizabeth, as we were reading all of these things, and texting this link, and that link, and the other link to each other is how in very few of these pieces that were responding to this piece that was essentially about how it is to be in an intimate relationship with someone for years, how we don't talk about how much work goes into love and relationships. And I'll add a little side note here. In the process of reading all of these pieces, there was also kind of this pile of thoughtful white women complaining about not having enough friends, and, and how hard friendships were. And I feel like for me, this is all in like one big relationships soup, where we don't talk about the work that's involved. Yeah. And so one day, Elizabeth and I went for a walk together. That's how all of these episodes basically come about. And we were processing all of this stuff. And we started talking about what are the things that we don't talk about? So literally, everything on the list we came up with, of topics for this season, has an aspect of we don't talk about Bruno to it. So actually, things we don't talk about is going to be the theme we come back to over and over throughout the season.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So we're gonna talk about actual subjects we don't talk about, like....
Larissa Parson:shame and stigma, desire and ambition, family. And we're going to talk about topics that we used to not talk about, that we do talk about now. Things like abortion, politics, rape, and how that evolution in what we talk about has changed both the dialogue that we have, and how people who have something to say about any of these topics are seen by others of us. And I think that goes right back to how people think about Havrilesky. Is that right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, But we're also going to zoom out. And we're going to look at the structural pieces that disrupt our ability and desire to talk about hard things, because that feels really important to both of us to consistently go back to these systems that we live, work and play under that influence the decisions we make. So obviously, what we decided to talk about is a decision we make. So this is one piece of this thing that we've talked about before that I call a lasagna. And this is the piece called culture. I think we both want to just spend a little bit of time here. Like to consider what forces within our culture influence what we don't talk about, you know, like, what do you think about, Larissa? Like, what comes to mind for you, when I pose that question to you?
Larissa Parson:I mean, all of them. If you look at an intersectionality diagram, and you think about things like religion, or social class or education level, or like pick your thing, all of them. But I think that in terms of the, ongoing discourse, stuff that we read, and see a lot of, I think that the white supremacy culture characteristic of demanding perfectionism, or demanding perfection, sorry, perfectionism, expecting that we get it just right all the time. And therefore the other people get it right all the time has a lot to do with this. There's just a lot in there. The idea that there's only one white - one white, that was a Freudian slip worth making - one RIGHT way to do things! (laughter) like talk about your marriage, or one right way to have a family, or one right way to be in your body. And then like, again, I'm just going right down the list in my head of white supremacy, culture characteristics here. Urgency. Not only does it have to happen one right way, but it needs to be like yesterday. And then the other thing that I think about a lot when we talk about what we talk about, and what we don't talk about, is the expectation or the idea. And I feel like it's kind of wrapped into perfectionism a little bit, that no one ever changes. So that your mistakes from 30 years ago, are exactly who you are now, which I would like to think is not true. Because I, I would like to think that, you know, we are capable of growth and change. And it's more complex than that. Because clearly, like, I am still the bookish girl who I woke up this morning sleeping on top of my Kindle, and I used to sleep with books in my bed all the time. You know, it's not like I changed in that way. But I would like to think that my ideas and my ability to see other perspectives has changed since I was eight. And and then finally, I would say capitalism is a big influence here, too. Like the idea that, well, there's a solution to your problem and if you spend your money on it, then the solution will just magically change your life. And so then we don't actually need to talk about this stuff. We can just spend money on it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So that's just like the little snippet, we're obviously going to talk a little bit more, or a lot more, about all of that in detail. But I think it's also important to talk about the real tiny micro pieces of what it means to *not* talk about a subject. So these everyday pieces of the ephemera of living. Like much of the work of women behind the scenes, risks being made invisible when we don't talk about it. And when it's not talked about, it's sometimes can be seen as unimportant. So when we think about what it means to live in a space with other people, and how much privacy we need we should consider do we really have to speak freely on the phone to someone? Is it any wonder that we do default to texting when we can be more honest in that text, because it's only intended for the other person. Whereas if we were to speak some of these words, it could be overheard by someone in our family who might take it the wrong way who might see as overstepping or -- as something comes back from a lot of trauma survivors I've talked to -- spilling family business which should stays within the family. So that's just one example. But also, what does it mean to feel to be in this space of literally just not having the time to talk about a hard thing? I mean, how many of us know someone who has time carved out with a therapist on a regular basis, because literally, that's the only time that they have to talk about the hard thing, because they have to keep things together for their family, or they have to kind of keep them at an even point so they can do X, Y, and Z. So they can continue to function in the way that they're expected to function. So the micro pieces of what's involved when we talk about certain things, or don't talk about certain things, is really an important piece to consider.
Larissa Parson:Absolutely. And I want to go back to your, your discussion or your your points about when we don't talk about things, we risk them being invisible. And what immediately came to mind, and you touched on this a little bit, but I want to just like highlight it again, is how, again, piles of think pieces, just piles of them, about emotional labor, and care work and the mental load are, you know, their efforts to make those things visible. This work that is done often uncompensated, often behind the scenes, often at the cost of your own sense of self, or peace. And, I think it's great that people are surfacing all of this stuff. But are the right people hearing it? Are the right people seeing it? When we only talk about it over in this little box on the side is it getting front and center for the people who need to really see and hear things? I think, for me, that's part of the micro stuff. How do we talk about things so that everyone can hear them? And then the flip side of that is, like you said, and sometimes it's safer in a text message. Sometimes it's safer in the group chat. Sometimes it's safer to just blow off steam, and then figure out how to surface it and make it visible in another way. And yeah, I don't know. The other thing I jotted down a note was not feeling like you have the time to talk about something hard, like keeping it in the text, keeping it in the group chat. I was just like, my kids have supersonic hearing, but only when we're talking about something that they don't think they need to care about. But like maybe they should, but it has nothing to do with them. Like, we'll be talking about, I don't know, some random factoid from the news. And they'll be like, what, but if we're saying, hey, it's time to get ready for bed or like, I don't hear you. Yeah, so. So yeah. Anyway. I think that is part of the picture when we talk about not having the time to talk about something hard, because there are kids with supersonic hearing. There aren't safe places to talk sometimes. And there's just a lot to consider there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I like what you're saying, especially around how do we talk about things so people outside of our box, or sphere or world experience, lived experience can hear them? I feel like that's, in many ways, the million dollar question. Because when we think about who needs to hear some of these things, they are not necessarily the people that we're in front of on a regular basis. And so how do we? And maybe it's not on us,
Larissa Parson:Right. and maybe sometimes it's on us, maybe it's a "yes/and" maybe sometimes it's on us, and maybe sometimes it's not on us, to be louder. Or to be in a space where we are not normally showing up in a space. But I think that's a really crucial point. Because I do think there's a lot of value in saying these things and having conversations that are hard to talk about, or that have been traditionally hard to talk about. And there's a lot of value in other people coming along. And how do we get them along with us. Yeah, and that seems like a big conversation in a way about what does allyship mean? What does what does it mean to support and I want to say extend and expand a movement, really?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's nice.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:This is making my heart very full and I was like, "Okay, this is why I'm not watching these hearings," because I'd be crying my head off the whole time. So watching Cory Booker, and hearing the words that he said to Judge Jackson. The piece that I saw flips from her to him and back--, it's like a minute and a half long--but she kind of goes for this little tissue and has it in her hand. And I'm like,"where are the Kleenex?!" because I see him show up for her in a way that's so strong, and loud and visible. This is allyship and beauty and recognizing someone's power, and grace. It just felt really emotional to watch that.
Larissa Parson:Mm hmm. You're saying that makes me think that maybe it's about how do we show up for each other? And how do we create space for each other? How do we hold each other's hands through tough stuff? Okay, before we get completely down this rabbit hole, I'm gonna just draw back a little bit. I'm gonna pull us back just a little bit, though, because I think this is completely relevant to what you were just saying, like, in some ways. So I want to bring in this idea that and there are lots of exceptions to this, for sure. Especially if you read a lot of memoir, which I don't, but, but some people do is that, but when we think about like, the big picture, arcs of stories that we tell about things about what we want to change, or how we want to feel or how we want to be, we tend to skip over when we're like, designing that vision, the mess in the middle. And, I will say that like okay to make a Marvel movie reference here. There's a lot of messy middle in some of the Marvel movies. There's a whole lot of messy, but then the good guys win a lot. You know, but there's there is there's definitely like if you follow some characters arcs, you can see that actual messy, I'm making mistakes, development. I mean, yeah, anyway, there's this whole I'm not gonna get off onto that topic. But I was just thinking about it the other day. What what people want a lot of the time is a heroic journey, where we kind of just get through the underworld really fast.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah.
Larissa Parson:But that's where the solutions happen and where the change happens. You can't come out the other side without going through. So sometimes the messy stuff, I wouldn't want to equate committee meetings with the underworld, but kinda. That's the messy stuff where we show up and we listen, and we think and we ponder solutions, and we problem solve together. And we have to come to some sort of agreement, making deliberate connections with friends making the effort to make those deliberate, deliberate connections with friends, showing up for therapy. Right, just going to therapy, and making it a thing that is on your calendar. That's the messy middle stuff, because I can't say how many therapy sessions I've left where my therapist has said, "Well, I really hate to leave this just kind of hanging, but we got to go", and I'm like'aaaah, Why it is always like this?'
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Uh huh.
Larissa Parson:The daily practice of showing up in the ways we want to show up is not always tidy. Sometimes it's messy. Sometimes we drop balls. Sometimes we forget things. And we just keep trying to show up and show up and show up. So that stuff is not glamorous. But that's where the change happens and where the magic is.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I like the idea. This idea of the messy middle is super important. And I feel it's glazed over in so many think-pieces, in so many books, and everything else and wherever. I feel like this happens a lot. We want the heroic journey. And sometimes I wonder if we really want that. Or if we're told that we want that. Mm hmm. Because really, what I want from my therapist, for example, the person that I'm spending time with is to see them as a person.
Larissa Parson:Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson:To be as vulnerable as I am.
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And in order to see that, you've got to show me the messy middle.
Larissa Parson:Yes. Elizabeth, I love that so much. I love that so much. I think you're exactly right that we are told that this is what we want. The this is how marketing works. Oh, this thing is bad. Here's your pain. Here's the solution. We skip the middle. But that's like, not how the process works. And that's yeah. And yes, I want to see you in your fullness, in your totality, which means messy is going to be part of it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I want that messy. I want this to be super crystal clear to anyone listening: I'm here for the messy.
Larissa Parson:Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm not here for the small talk. I'm not here for the tidy wrap up. That tells me nothing about you. I'm here for the messy part. And yeah, it's gonna be messy. And that's okay. And that's what I'm here for.
Larissa Parson:Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, should we close with what we're eating? Like little bit of a rough?
Larissa Parson:That's a jump(laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson:....rough, rough segue from Elizabeth here.(Larissa's gorgeous laughter)
Larissa Parson:sure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:There's a lot of other places we could go with this. I know that we will go there. And I think this is maybe a good time to transition to what we are eating because there's a lot of stuff that we're going to talk about. I think this is going to be a good place to sort of pause us.
Larissa Parson:I think you're right. We're gonna dig in so much more into so many things. This season that I think pausing here, wrapping it up would be a great idea. Do want me to tell you about what I'm thinking about when I think about food?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. What are you eating?
Larissa Parson:I had the most amazing bowl of berries the other night I was sitting there just like humming to myself about how good they were. And you know, you know how it is with berries around here. Like sometimes they're good and sometimes they're mediocre.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:These were fabulous. And they were just like a bowl of blueberries and raspberries just from the co op. Nothing on top of them, just like in the bowl eating them with my fingers. My body thought that was too many berries the next day we were not happy but I am still thinking about the deliciousness. And I'm like can I have a smaller bowl of berries today?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes
Larissa Parson:So that is my plan is to go get a handful of berries this afternoon or maybe in five minutes and enjoy the heck out of them.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I love that. Raspberries are one of my--I don't know if I'd really call it like a "desert island food" --but it's one of those top five foods I can eat for the rest of my life. Raspberries are like number two for me. I'm eating cheese, (Larissa laughter), cheese and more cheese in my house right now.
Larissa Parson:That's such an Elizabeth comment. I love it. I love it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Dairy, all the dairy. Some people crave beef. It's cheese for me. I'm like "did I have any cheese today? If so when was that?" Because it like a long time ago. So specifically, I'm on Brie. And at a different meal I'm onto pimento cheese, which is one of my favorites. And I eat pimento cheese like I just got here basically because I'd never seen pimento cheese in the Northeast. And so as soon as I discovered it, it was like a biscuit and pimento cheese. I'm like "what heaven is this?" Oh my gosh. So my favorite pimento cheese is the green hatch, chili pimento cheese that LocoPops stocks. I think it actually arrives on Thursday. So I may be there shortly. It's got heat, but it's also creamy. And it's also--just the aesthetic of food never fails to like just make me a little weak-- it's just gorgeous in the container, a swirly green in there. And it's real light and it's just lovely. So it's not even a pint. It's a half pint container. But you don't need a ton. Just multiple days in a row. And then you're all set. So, good. So good.
Larissa Parson:I had a pimento cheese week last week. It was great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, so great.
Larissa Parson:So good. Yes. Well, on that delicious note. We're gonna thank everyone for listening. And Elizabeth, is it okay, if I throw a plug for my work in here?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Please do.
Larissa Parson:Alright, so if you want to put some of this theory into action, like if you want to talk about the things that we don't talk about, I host two weekly group conversations in the Slow Burn, which is my membership space, where we talk about the how of all of this And we practice some of the how in other sessions. So it is a place to be witnessed in your messy middle. And if you are curious about it, head over to community.larissaparson.com. And you can read more.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:If we can't remember you can go to larissaparson.com and we can figure it out
Larissa Parson:Yes, you can. Okay? Yes. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So it's this rare place that exists to hold space and even celebrate the messy middle, so important for all of us. Thank you, Larissa.
Larissa Parson:Thank you. And if you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, you can go to patreon.com/wondermine, where you'll have access to our bonus episodes, and whatever other awesomeness Elizabeth and I come up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Which is substantial usually.
Larissa Parson:It's a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, yeah, it is. And we are so grateful every time you share Wondermine with friends, that means so much to us. Writing us a review, or just clicking five stars on your podcast app will help others find their "wow" and"how" of a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation.
Larissa Parson:And until the next episode, you can follow us@wonderminepodcast on Instagram. Thanks again. We are so delighted you're listening.
