Wondermine
Wondermine
Season 2, Episode 4: Female Troubles
Quick note: the audio on this episode is a bit spotty (thanks, Zoom!). Check out the transcript if it's too hard to listen!
On this episode, Elizabeth and Larissa discuss "female troubles"--the things we don't talk about when we talk about having a uterus.
Mentioned in this episode:
Margo Jefferson, Deconstructing a Nervous System
From Blood and Ash, Jennifer L. Armentrout
Turning Red (also check out the excellent bts piece, Embrace the Panda)
Are You There God, it's me, Margaret, Judy Blume
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson, I am a joy coach, a movement teacher, a writer and podcaster, a mom to twins, a bit of a hippie, and I am a terrible sleeper.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a parent, a partner, a rape survivor and writer. And I talk about relationships, trauma and decision making, and I'm 49 years old.
Larissa Parson:And if you're new here, Hello. We're the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the wow and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Special thank you to our patrons who helped pay for the transcript you're reading, the hosting of this podcast and so much more. They make everything easier for us. If you would like to support the show, thank you, you can do that by visiting patreon.com/wondermine. And if you don't want to, that's okay, too. We're just glad you're here.
Larissa Parson:And today, we are talking about something we're calling "female troubles". And I want to offer a content note, before we get started. We are going to be talking about some sensitive topics related to sexual and reproductive health. So, use your headphones if you need to. And if this doesn't feel like something that you can invest in right now, that's fine, too. And this is going to be a rather long episode. So you can pause you can come back to it. You know, take your time with it. So our theme this season is what we don't talk about and why. And what's been coming up a lot, as we've talked through some of these questions is how many of these topics are only taboo in certain situations.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right, we know that among many of our friends, and in places like private Facebook groups, much of what we're going to talk about today is a really huge part of conversations there. So what we're going to do on this episode is talk more about how we can keep cultivating these conversations outside of these circles.
Larissa Parson:But before we get started with that, let's talk about what we're reading. Elizabeth, do you want to start?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I would love to. I am reading Margo Jefferson's newest book. It's an earthy, deep searching memoir called Deconstructing A Nervous System. And it is completely unlike anything I have ever read. It is not a typical memoir in any way. But she talks about it as a memoir, and it's referenced as a memoir. It's sort of like an excavation of her soul, her thoughts and personal history through multiple lenses. The lenses of other people who would almost sort of be alter egos, but also through the lenses of family and lenses like race, class, and feminism. So it's fascinating. She's a cultural critic, and there are a lot of cultural references that I don't know about. So I found myself really looking up a lot! And that was fascinating too, because it kind of got me down some interesting avenues that I hadn't considered before. But it's excellent, excellent, excellent. What is on your Kindle, Larissa?
Larissa Parson:I'm so glad we're recording this week instead of last week. I had some good books last week and some real duds. I just finished reading the second book in a series called From Blood and Ash. It's by Jennifer L Armentrout. This is a kind of book that has stalked me over the internet because of what else I read. Like, you know, you like this book, you're gonna love this book. And I'm like, okay, but I kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off until some friends of mine were like, "No, it's really good. You should totally read it." And so I've been working on that series slowly. We're putting it on hold one book at a time at the library so that I'm not just binge reading the whole series like I did with some a couple of weeks ago. So it's fun. It's got people with interesting powers, vampire-like creatures and a slow burn romance for people who like paranormal and fantasy settings and romance. It's that kind of book. Yeah, it's enjoyable. Yeah. I'm into fun. With the state of the world right now, I cannot read anything that is not fun. I just can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I will say I was given a fun book recently by my friend Bev which was given to her by a librarian who said it was one of her favorite books of the year. I think last year, the year before? So I'm excited to read that and there is fun in that there are actually robots. What about that?
Larissa Parson:That is not your usual stuff. I can't wait to hear when you read it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It is not and it's not her (Bev) either. So I'm excited.
Larissa Parson:We have to put this in the show notes because everyone's gonna want to know what the book was.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, yes. I am not going to say the next time we record, I may talk about it then. (laughter) I'm not given that up.
Larissa Parson:All right. Well, on that note. You just use that power, Elizabeth. So our topic for today is less empowering, all about being disempowered? And also not. Female troubles. So to be clear, when we're talking about this, we're talking about stuff that happens to people with uteruses. Experiences that you have because you have a uterus. And we just want to acknowledge that that doesn't always mean that women is the word we want to use. So sometimes trans folks, non binary folks, like we want to be gender inclusive here and acknowledge that a lot of the language is going to be very woman centric. But we're really delighted by this antiquated turn of phrase female troubles. And when we say female troubles, it sounds like we're gonna be talking about periods and stuff. And I've already given that away by saying uteruses, is that right, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, that is right. But I do want to sort of talk about where the phrase kind of comes from a little bit. And so we're, for our purposes, here, we're talking about the phrase female troubles to talk about challenges or issues related to women's sexual and reproductive health. So it's totally antiquated, for sure. It is one of these, well I don't know if it's a charming phrase, but it's definitely one of those phrases that kind of catches your ear, because you know, it's not something that we would not use in conversation today. But if you've had any adults in your life, who grew up maybe around the depression, like grandparents, or growing up in the 70s and 80s, you may have heard that term. So if grandma perhaps had ovarian cancer, it might have been said that she had female troubles. You know, when the aunt who never had children was mentioned, maybe it was said that she had female troubles, which could have been a stand in for infertility. But female troubles is not really a phrase, obviously, you'd hear today. Except I did find it kind of a tongue in cheek way in some academic papers, which I found sort of fun. So in keeping with our theme of what we don't talk about, and why the phrase female troubles is a euphemism for what's not said. But we want to say things out loud here on Wondermine, as a way to take back some power. So today, we're gonna dive into some aspects of women's - and so again, trying to be aware of our lane here, but also being aware of where some of this language specifically comes from - sexual and reproductive health, that we don't talk about.
Larissa Parson:Thank you for clarifying that history. I think it's really important. I feel like this conversation is especially relevant when we're looking at what we've known for a while, what's coming, and what is already the case, in many states; the loss of bodily autonomy and health care for uterati all over this country. And part of the reason for that loss is a bunch of men, for the most part, who, but not all, not only men, who know nothing about the reproductive system, because they grew up hearing about mysterious female troubles, instead of being educated about the many ways a uterus is not a penis. So, can we start by talking about what should be common knowledge for people of all genders and genitalia?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We can. I like the connection that you've made here is when we don't talk about something or when we allude to something in a very vague or inaccurate way, this is one of the ways that we perpetuate misunderstanding around things. And this is where we can kind of get into trouble. The trouble that we're in right now -- whether that's intentional or not-- is it is sometimes tricky for people to understand things in very clear ways when we don't use clear terms to talk about things that we mean.
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I want to start off a little bit chronologically with puberty and menstruation. So female troubles seem to mean actual trouble. I couldn't really find necessarily any reference to female troubles used in relation to puberty or menstruation, and yet, you might hear female troubles used as a proxy for those things, right? Even for menopause or perimenopause. All of this is kind of just troubling on its own, where again, a lack of clarity can lead to a lack of understanding which can lead to a lack of in education around really crucial pieces around the human anatomy that we have and that other people have. But anyway, we thought since it'd be a while since either of us were there, it would be fun to look at puberty and menstruation through the lens of the new Pixar movie Turning Red. It is Pixar, right? So Larissa, what felt familiar -and this is fun, because it's the new movie and we've both seen it recently--what felt familiar to you watching this movie?
Larissa Parson:Oh, my gosh, that scene where her mom offers her the pads. She's like, "Here, take some..." and I totally remember having that scene. I was probably 11 when my mom did this. I was a really late bloomer, though. It was years before I needed them. And so like the, the absolute, like, mortifying feeling that there was this thing, and it was mysterious and I didn't know and like, ugh. And my mom was throwing this stuff at me and I didn't know what to do about it. There wasn't a lot of information that was super helpful. And, you know, we had a copy of our bodies ourselves in my house. It's not like there wasn't information available to me. But that's still that feeling of total embarrassment. And then also, you know, thinking about how her body changes and turns into this, you know, big fluffy, red panda. But like, all those bodily changes of puberty that started happening way before I started getting periods, and like, how just awful it was to feel like my body wasn't this body I'd known for my whole childhood anymore. There was a lot of shame in that, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, there. I think that's that's right. I think also, when I think about like, gosh, I mean, it's not like, I wouldn't say it looks like Kotex in the 50s and 60s, with the belt wow, that was some wacky shit going on there. But pads even in the 70s and 80s, they're awful!
Larissa Parson:They're so thick!
Elizabeth Johnson:So thick! Like those things that you're given when you go home from the hospital. So if you've had a had a vaginal birth, you know, let's just like they're just met these massive things. It's kind of like mind boggling, because it's also scary, because they're so big! I remember feeling really intimidated by the products around.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth Johnson:Even though there's obviously way more period products today than there was, it's still like what are these and it felt like there's shame with buying them. I didn't even buy them for a while (like, I'm trying to think how that worked out?!) But I don't remember actually going to the store because I just felt really embarrassed around all that. You mentioned shame. I get that completely because I was also sort of a late bloomer, which we can talk about. What I notice is there's not a lot of shame around her (Mei) but there is shame when she transforms because she's just become an animal, which is shocking. But I don't necessarily see a lot of around her actual feelings. I see shame rooted in some of the behavior that mom does with the pads and confronting the guy who's behind the counter. What was really interesting to me, they're like 12 or something-- I can't remember how old they are in that in the movie-- bu their self assuredness and the strength that they all have to support each other. And even when she was sort of drawing in her room, I felt confusion and embarrassment, but I didn't see a lot of shame sort of seeping from her in ways that I have seen, that I felt and that have shown up for in other movies or other pop culture references.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I can totally see that. And yet, like you just said, it's not really what my experience was, like, at all. At all. I feel like she was confused and a little mortified, again, like you said, because she turned into an animal and that's just like, What the heck?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah.
Larissa Parson:And that scene, where she's trying to hide it from her parents, and she's like, flailing around in her room and in the bathroom and just smacking pictures off the walls. There's this real sense of what that f is going on here. But not shame. Really, I think, the hiding maybe a little bit, but it's not. It's really more confusion to me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, because I think when I think about shame, it's like something, something is absolutely wrong with us. The scenes with Mei bouncing around the room and knocking shit off of walls, that is this mortification and confusion. But my overwhelming feeling was absolutely shame. Because I was a super late developer, you know, I felt shame because my younger sister who's about 15 months younger started to develop breasts before I did. I felt a lot of shame around being just like a flat body, no breasts and but also feeling like having like really big feelings about wanting to be sexual with boys. And what did that mean and wanting to kiss a boy and all of that. And then about my period, which did not come until I don't even know I was probably like 12 or 13. I was at least 13 is my guess it was I was much later than everyone else. (EMJ noting as
she edits transcript:it was actually 15 not 13!) So probably I will be getting a period to the end of my days this point since I was that late.
Larissa Parson:I got you beat but keep going.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Shame was a big theme for me and puberty. But and I think something that also really stood out to me is that unlike Mei, I did not have this core group of friends to be able to talk about things with who would support me. I had a real good friend in middle school, and then I left and we all went to different schools and that went away. So I was definitely that person - no surprise - who sought refuge in books. Are You There, God? It's me, Margaret. Anything Judy Blume, Beverly Cleary more Judy Blume. That was my experience. It was a shame packed puberty.
Larissa Parson:Mm hmm. I can sol relate to that. And maybe that's why we're friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That could be.
Larissa Parson:So, I feel like there's a lot more to say about puberty. But I feel like the thing about puberty is that it starts this whole, potentially being able to birth another human thing. So, not only is your body feeling like it's not your own, or that's not the body you're used to for sure, it's doing all this weird stuff. And there are these big changes that happen in this time, including the early parts of puberty. I'm watching my own kids be pre pubescent and slightly is starting to shift into puberty. And there's a lot of kind of mystery and a little bit of cluelessness around the potential consequences of the changes that your body is going through. Even though we talk a lot about it in our house, but I think for folks who are born with uteruses, this also starts to wake us up to how little power we have, because of what is in our bodies. And that our uterus doesn't just belong to us. And we learn often that the size and shape of our body in all kinds of ways, too big, too small, too busty, too generous buttcheeks, everything is up for public consumption, and criticism and objectification. And we could talk all day about things like dress codes, and yada, yada, yada. We could talk about all of that. But I really want to lean towards pregnancy because pregnancy is one of those times where I felt like people thought they could just touch my body. And, we have this, I want to call it fetishization of the pregnant body. People run up and put their hands on your belly. You would never go touch somebody's belly in public if they weren't carrying a fetus. And there are also all of these, you know, photographs that glorify this idea. And at the same time, we don't talk about how complex and intense and risky pregnancy is. And we almost never talk about what happens after the baby is born. And even less than that, do we talk about what happens when we miscarry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. When we asked on our Instagram stories about topics that felt off or not socially acceptable, miscarriage was absolutely of those suggested topics that came up. I don't know if it would be referred to as female troubles, but I feel like it probably would. This is just one of these sort of taboo subjects that we really need to talk more about. And I'm always grateful when there women who have experienced miscarriage --or people with uteruses who have been experienced miscarriage --and when they say "I have, and this is what how I felt, and this is what happened to me." Because I feel like when we talk about these things, again, we dispel some of the shame, the fear, the stigma, all of these big, dark emotions --to go back to that term from last season from Miriam Greenspan--that we have around things that are almost untouchable subjects.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, that's beautifully summed up, Elizabeth. So miscarriage is much more common than many of us may think. I personally can like rattle off a whole bunch of people who I know who have had miscarriages. Obviously, I'm not but from a Mayo Clinic article, and I also looked at some other research. So there's about 10 - 20% of known pregnancies that end in loss. But, as we talked about on our abortion episode, the actual number of miscarriages is probably much higher, because many of them happen very early on in pregnancy. So if you'll remember, many folks with uteruses don't know for sure that they're pregnant until well past six weeks along. And many miscarriages happened before 10 weeks. So, if we want to compare the rate of miscarriage with the rate of say, breast cancer, about 13% of American women will develop breast cancer over their lifetime. And we're not even just talking about within the span of years where you could potentially get pregnant. So, it's much more common actually, than breast cancer. So that's like the numbers. The consequences of pregnancy loss on the mental health of birthing parents can be vast, and at the same time is often unacknowledged by the people in their lives. We don't know how to respond. I mean, we are a culture that is terrible with grief and death. And we really don't know how to respond well to miscarriage or to pregnancy loss. And there are all kinds of ways that this happens. There are insensitive comments. You get to shorter leave from work. And depending on how far along in a pregnancy you are, the physical recovery can be as long as for any other pregnancy that did not rely result in a loss. So, it's not an easy road to walk. In a culture that doesn't see abortion as healthcare, it's even harder for so many folks. There are many, many, many miscarriages where you have to have an abortion procedure to complete the miscarriage. For whatever reason your body is not ejecting the tissue fast enough. All kinds of reasons. And so we need to talk about this. We need to talk more about it. We talk a lot about pregnancy. We're talking a lot more about abortion, especially right now. But we don't talk a lot about what happens if your very much wanted pregnancy, and even an unwanted pregnancy that ends in miscarriage, doesn't turn out the way you expected.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm struck by when we think about--when you're talking about like the insensitive comments and how we don't know how to respond-- how much it is similar to the lack of understanding and knowledge around how we respond to the death of someone in our lives. How does one respond to someone whose mother died? And what do we do in these cases? So often the avenue is silence because we just don't know what to say and we don't want to say the wrong thing. But what we know is silence is worse than anything else, right? because then it's a lack of acknowledgement.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We need to, again, to use the words and we need to name the thing that happened. And we need to check in with people. I had lunch with a friend of mine a while ago, Annie, who had seen a friend of hers recently whose mother had passed. And people checked it on her for like, the first couple of weeks. They brought food, and it was just very lovely. And then..crickets. Absolutely nothing until my friend Annie checked in with her. And she said, "You know you are the only one." And it was a six month benchmark. It was relatively recently and no one had checked just to see how she's doing. You know, we just have to talk about these things. And when we think about--we go back to the kind of like the beginning of where we started here, you know-- how do we keep cultivating conversations outside of these spaces? One very simple way is that we talk with people about these things. We talk about the things that are going on. We acknowledge the really hard thing, even if it's like "I see you and this is really shitty that you're going through it."
Larissa Parson:Yes, exactly. And it can really be that simple. I seeyou and this is really shitty.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:Yes, let's have a coffee. Let's go for a walk. I want to spend time with you in any way that feels supportive. Doesn't have to be a lot. Yeah. So, I feel like this is an awkward transition, but I'm gonna make it anyway. Some of the things that could still be going on some of the things that happen when your body gets pregnant. There are lots of things we could talk about. There are lots of risks during pregnancy that we could talk about. We don't talk that much about those. And we also don't talk about what happens after pregnancy. So this is really, really essential to the abortion discussion that we're having right now. Forced pregnancy, not having abortion available as healthcare, is telling a person with a uterus that they are not in charge with of their own body. So most pregnancies, I kind of want to say all pregnancies, result in permanent changes to the body you live in. The size, the shape, the stretch marks, stretched skin, pelvic floor issues, tears from giving birth, sometimes, the stitches to repair them and the scar tissue or scar tissue from a C section or scar tissue from stitching, pelvic pain, hip issues, this list is really long back pain, incontinence, prolapse, postpartum depression and PTSD, birth trauma, all of these could result from any pregnancy. And we're not even talking about the things that can happen while you're pregnant.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah
Larissa Parson:And not all of these will happen to somebody who's pregnant. I carried twins and came out of it without pelvic floor issues. But my sacroiliac joint has never been the same. You know? And many of these things can happen without a pregnancy involved as well, and I think that's really important to note. This it's not just pregnancy, however, some of these things increase with pregnancy. And the work that I do is, in many ways, for many of my clients and unraveling of all the messages we just talked about that they start getting at puberty that intensifies during pregnancy. Or, in general, with the experience of being in a body with a uterus, in this culture, it gets more complex, and in large part that's thanks to pregnancy. So one of the things that I say to anyone who's given birth, or is planning to give birth, is that your body is never not post partum. Your body knows. So like, I haven't had a second pregnancy. Folks who have a second pregnancy will often say that they notice it faster. Their bodies just kind of knows what to do a little bit more differently. But even if you only get pregnant once, your body will always be changed by having carried that fetus. And we live in a society that ignores your well being postpartum. And it's kind of appalling, right? This is for the rest of your life. It's not just like, oh, nine months and you're all done. You can go back to work two weeks later. No! No, the hormonal changes alone are huge. They're huge. Huge. Yeah, Elizabeth, you want to jump in?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We just don't know anything like that, you know? And again, it's like we don't know these things because they're not talked about. And certainly this your way of thinking about a body is not a typical way that anyone would ever encounter conversations about their body, right? When I saw my doctor, no one would have ever said your body is never postpartum. Right?
Larissa Parson:Never not postpartum.
Elizabeth Johnson:never not postpartum. Yeah, sorry!
Larissa Parson:Your body is ALWAYS postpartum. (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson:My bottom...body! My bottom might also never not be postpartum.(laughter) I mean that thought alone is really shocking. And when we think about where these ideas come from, I think, I mean, coming from the establishment. They're not coming from the medical schools, right? Which means they're not coming from our doctors, they're not coming from our nurses, they're not coming from most health care providers. Right. So why would I not think after I had my kiddo that I'm ready to go back to work in a couple of months? Because why would I not be? And we know why we would not be at this point. But I think that this is a shock. For many of us who were in that position at one point, who never had conversations who never heard that language, your body is always postpartum.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, well, and we, to be really clear, live in a culture that does not acknowledge that you need time to recover.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah
Larissa Parson:Because we do not have paid parental leave.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right.
Larissa Parson:We do not have paid universal child care. We do not have the social supports that would allow for birthing parents to fully recover before they go back to work. So if you have that time to recover, it's because you have a really good job. Or your spouse has a really good job, that has benefits, that has leave, that has money. That's it. Grrr, makes me so freakin angry. Let's talk solutions. Briefly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Let's talk solutions.
Larissa Parson:So we can have pelvic physical therapy, occupational therapy, movement therapy. This kind of stuff is standard practice in many countries. And it should be standard practice here. But, if we don't know that, it's an option, we don't do it. So you just gonna throw out reasons for folks who are listening, that you might want to see a pelvic PT or other pelvic health specialist. And this goes for all bodies, not just bodies that have given birth. It goes for all bodies and all genders actually. So sex should not be painful. If you're having painful sex, you should find somebody to work with. It may take I would say with painful sex, a PT and a therapist maybe in order, depending on why it's painful. But a PT can also really solve that problem. You should be able to go to the bathroom, all kinds of ways when you want to and with ease. So incontinence, constipation. Those are both things that a PT can look into with you. Back pain and pelvic pain, diastasis recti, prolapses. All of these things can be treated, can be eased, can be made more functional and liveable for the vast majority of people, but we just don't know that that's available. So too often, we don't talk about it. And it gets brushed off as female troubles. Or we get told this is just what happens when you have a baby or get older. And so the solution is to have conversations. Hey, are you peeing your pants, too? Oh, I have a great pelvic PT. Do you want their name? That's all it takes. Next time somebody makes a joke about sneezing and peeing. Hey, I have this great pelvic PT. They really helped me with this. The conversation again, just like with a grief conversation, does not have to be an extensive unraveling of everything. It can be as simple as offering a little bit of support. And when we don't talk enough about these things, or if we feel too much shame around them to talk about them, then that means we don't get the care that we all need.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:This idea of "this is just what happens when..."
Larissa Parson:(groans)
Elizabeth M. Johnson:or this is just what happens to girls in our family," or "when you get older or whatever", This line of-- I hesitate to say reasoning, but it's that line of explanation perhaps -- is something that will be very, very familiar to some childhood sexual abuse survivors who confronted or talked to parents or caregivers (about their abuse). And we're told this "the same thing happened when I was your age," just basically suck it up because it's just sort of like a rite of passage in a way that's obviously completely effed up.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:But also in a way that's just really perfunctory. And that's because, of course, none of this is necessarily a rite of passage. And of course, all of this is something that we can then heal from.
Larissa Parson:Yes to all of that. Right. Yeah, we don't need this to be dismissed. We get to speak up about it. Completely.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No. And when -- just like when you tell someone for the first time that you were abused, or you were raped, or you are peeing your pants-- if the first person you tell does not have a good response, you need to find someone else to tell who will.
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And it's damn sucky that it is the case that not everyone has the good response. But there will be people out there who do have the good response. And you deserve to have those people be listening to your painful conversation or disclosure.
Larissa Parson:Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Keep looking. Because the people are out there who will listen. II could keep going. Because I can rant all day about pelvic health. But we don't have all day. So let's talk about breast cancer.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:A natural segue in many ways. Let's make this make sense. On my way back from Knoxville last weekend, we passed a billboard that said"Breast Cancer doesn't wait for October". This felt especially timely as I'd been thinking about how like abortion, we didn't use to say the word"cancer" out loud and now, it's on billboards advertising mammography screening. Breast cancer was one of those "female troubles", one of those topics that was very much off limits. I did a lot of digging around Audre Lorde's journey with breast cancer and learned so much about how we talked about cancer in as recently as the 1980s. In The Cancer Journals, she recalls a scene that she had with a friend of her brother-in-law, a woman called Little Sister who had breast cancer and a mastectomy, just like Lorde. They talked the whole afternoon and "did everything except compare scars,"It was the first time Lorde had talked with another bc survivor about her experience, aside from the survivors who came into the hospital to talk about prostheses with her. And at the end of their hours together, Lorde's mother said she didn't even know Little Sister had cancer. Today, 40ish years later, we talk about"battling" cancer and being a"cancer warrior". We talk about cancer in a very masculine, bellicose way; it's a fight, a war, a battle. And a very socially acceptable topic to talk about.
Larissa Parson:I love how you picked up on the line language that we use to talk about cancer as this very masculine thing, and that makes it acceptable to talk about openly. And that is pretty effed up to be honest.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Yeah, it is. Because what if and there's a whole lot of really, and this is, again, one of these pieces where we just don't have time to go into. But there's a whole lot of really interesting research and stories around people for whom breast cancer is not a battle. They are either so advanced in their cancer, or they have chosen a different path or whatever, or they just don't resonate with the language of battle, that they feel excluded from the idea of being a breast cancer survivor. So this is another example in my mind of how white supremacy shows up. We have a very clear binary line -- you do it this way, or you do it this way --one way is clearly better than the other. And then, of course, people who are not following that, that socially accepted binary, that socially accepted line of what this means are left behind. And so that's and maybe this is where we talk about the Charlotte Haley. And I don't necessarily know if she would be left behind. But her contribution to this idea of breast cancer awareness is really worth. Around 1992 a woman named Charlotte Hayley came up with the idea of wearing a peach colored ribbon as a way to raise awareness around how much money the NCI was spending on research (budget 1.8 billion and 5% was prevention). At the same time Self Magazine was partnering with Estee Lauder to create an awareness campaign around BCAM. They approached Hayley who wasn't interested in working with companies. So they worked around her and launched a pink ribbon. According to some research I read, Komen launched a pink ribbon in the Fall of 1991 before anyone else. Either way, breast cancer has been awash in pink ever since. So much so that we have the term"pinkwashing", which actually doesn;t mean what I thought it meant! But also, that is a little bit dubious, because their product could also be doing something that's harming the people who are using it. So it has become something a bit bigger than that right now. Yeah. That'swhere we're with pink and breast cancer.
Larissa Parson:Right. So this is a capitalism problem. Because capitalism loves to pretend it's doing one thing, and then it's actually not helping. Yeah, so I feel like I could go on and on about the evils of capitalism and breast cancer, but really, I'm being trying to be aware of time. So, we talk a lot about breast cancer. And part of that is thanks to capitalism. And also, I've had a bunch of friends who've had breast cancer diagnoses in the last few years, as I know, you also have Elizabeth. Our time of life is the time where this happens a lot. But, you know, there's something else it's been happening to even more of my friends and yet I do not see a huge outpouring of cute T shirts or colorful, colorful mugs to celebrate it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And we sometimes see that T shirt. But they're really mocking, right? Yes, they're not catchy, sexy or cute and they're not a wash in a certain color or something that made them more fun. So I know where you're going here. And I sometimes like to cite a couple of different statistics. I like to say one in eight women and one in three women. And any guesses as to what those numbers are?
Larissa Parson:So because I just looked up breast cancer statistics, I'm going to say one in eight is breast cancer. Is that right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Mmm, mhm. Yes.
Larissa Parson:And one in three is have experienced abuse.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:One in three is actually contact sexual violence.
Larissa Parson:Oh, even worse. Not just a broad category.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, one in three experience context sexual violence. So not cat calling or any kind of harassment or sexting. It would be someone touching you in a sexual way. Yeah, that's pretty horrible.
Larissa Parson:Horrifying.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. A pretty shocking statistic. But there's another number that I think we're working towards with this t shirt and cool mugs that are not out there yet, but maybe we will make some. It's something that's temporary but it can take years. It affects every woman differently but every woman will go through it every person with a uterus. Well, I don't even get to get into that because if you've had your uterus removed at once at some point or are pre puberty, then you won't go It goes faster. Yes. When your uterus gets removed. Yes. So what am I talking about there? What am I what is the thing that I'm referring to here? Every woman and some trans men?
Larissa Parson:So we're talking about menopause, and specifically perimenopause. I will say I'm thinking about uteruses getting removed, and I'm thinking about ovaries and some folks keep their ovaries so that they can go through a more natural menopause. So, it's kind of interesting. I mean, like, the cycle is not like, obviously, you're not going to be shedding uterine linings if you don't have the uterus to shed it. That being said, all right, so we don't talk about it. Tell us more Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We don't talk about it. I think this is another one of the things where we're so just unfamiliar with something that it kind of is invisible until we're almost in it and someone plants the seed. So many women familiar with the symptoms of menopause or perimenopause. Menopause is - well I was on Twitter earlier today. And someone who knows better said "menopause". She was like, "because I'm menopausal. And I've been eight months without my period."
Larissa Parson:No!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Not helpful! You've got 1 million followers, please don't say this. So 12 months without a period makes you in menopause.
Larissa Parson:Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Until that's happened, you're not in menopause, you are probably in the hell that is perimenopause. If you're anywhere in your 40s, you're at this point.
Larissa Parson:Or 50s!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right. I'm just thinking like where we're starting.. pretty early 40s. So there's headaches and there's heart palpitations. And there's night sweats or hot flashes, there's irregular periods, there's irritability. There are sometimes people have had hearing changes, there's mood swings, there's vaginal dryness. There's heavier periods, there's so much here.
Larissa Parson:It's like the list of things that can happen when you get pregnant, except for much more awful and long-lasting. Incontinence is also on this list, too. So, when you look at the numbers, there's a big spike after pregnancy and there's a big spike around menopause - perimenopause into menopause. So, let's see, I can check off so many boxes on this. And I'm thinking about what are the things that capitalism does give us. There is a robust market in cooling sheets and sleep wear but I'm still looking for the perfect combination, personally. I'm lucky if I can get back to sleep if I wake up hot. And then there's the whole just not sleeping well, in general for me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right. Same same. So I just like someone just mentioned this. I heard two women talking about this as I'm walking. Like some sort of cooling system and I'm like,
Larissa Parson:(laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson:going to follow you into this coffee shop. (laughter). So why do we hear about breast cancer more than we hear about perimenopause? Why are bc billboards urging me to get a mammogram? Why when I google"what percentage of breast cancer is detectable through mammography?" (because while mammography is lauded as The detection method, it is not a perfect tool and cannot detect all breast cancer), do I get an article at Komen.com instead of something from the I don't know, National Cancer Institute? WebMD? breast cancer.org? Why am I getting an article from Komen? Until very recently, like pandemic recently--which I think is super interesting--perimenopause and menopause were not well funded or well researched. And they are becoming more so. We've got venture capitalists, who's may or may not be women going through menopause themselves, or who have family or partners going through menopause, and they're seeing menopause as this$600 billion opportunity. That's a number that was cited recently in Forbes, so we're seeing that there's an audience for this. And venture capitalists are responding appropriately, well, maybe not "appropriately" but they're stepping up to this capitalist need, which may or may not be the answer, but maybe it's a part of the answer? It's not an either/ or I guess.
Larissa Parson:I'm surprised that the boomers didn't get this just because there were a lot of them. Now, it's like the millennials going through perimenopause with the Gen Xers, and this is where it's coming in.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Well, I think boomers not getting it goes back to me for a whole way around how we talk about sex generally.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I've done a lot of research around how we talk about sex and bodies. And so people refer to things as female troubles, whether that's boomers or boomers parents, they're not going to say that there's an opportunity or a need here.
Larissa Parson:Right. And there's a lot less shame in Gen X and younger generations around that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I agree.
Larissa Parson:Absolutely. Yeah, you're totally right. All right. So maybe we need a'Turning Red' movie for women"of a certain age". And wait, can we just talk about "of a certain age"? I feel like this is also a thing that hopefully is going away with boomers where we're feeling ashamed about how old we are. Can we just stop pretending that we're not over 40? Can we maybe not have that be a thing? I'm gonna say, to call back to my reading from earlier - that book was about a very young person, so I'm not even gonna get into it. But I've been doing some research on, and by research, I mean reading. I've been reading books in one of my favorite niches, paranormal, romance, fantasy type stuff. And every time there's a female main character who has over 40, it skips over whether there's a change or what's happening in her body. There is no information other than like, maybe an occasional reference to like a hot flash, like once, and maybe a reference to how her body just isn't what it used to be. There's a lot of body shame, or a lot of body disparagement, or a lot of talk about stretch marks and loose skin and you know, all of this stuff. And, I want to see this time, this perimenopausal time, as a fiery transformation, a Phoenix-like reclamation of ourselves, instead of this kind of like, shuffling off into into invisibility into the sunset. So I think writing my novel is getting higher on my to do list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, that might need to boost it up a couple spots, maybe into the top 10. (laughter) This is one of the reasons why I started out saying I'm 49. I tried to bring it up in conversation when it makes sense, you know, but I think this is really important. We have such a skewed sense as to what age is (looks like) and who is obsessed our age. Sometimes I post a picture a celebrity who's my age. I'm like, "she's my age, we are the same age." So this is what (49) could look like. I mean, I don't look like her necessarily, but this is what this age looks like. We don't know people who are our even our own age.
Larissa Parson:Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Sometimes there's shame associated with the age, but also like, oh, do I say that out loud to people? Anyway, there's this really interesting 2016 Fast Company article that asked "Why is no one talking about an important topic that affects 27 million people at work every day?" And the (female) author answers with sexism and ageism. And that makes sense, at least in part, at least when we're talking about work. But I think it's bigger than that. When we think about what gets talked about, what gets public air time, what gets news coverage and not just in Glamour or even Fast Company, we can follow the trail to what gets funded and what experts get training on This is one of my big soap boxes, you know. So, capitalism and the patriarchy
Larissa Parson:Duhhhhh!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We're not talking about these things. How can we eliminate domestic violence and sexual assault? Well, we have to eliminate racism and sexism first. So there's that. We just sort of talk in these euphemisms. Like,"here's this over here." And "if we could only do....". No, no. If you could only tell people to say no. No, no let's not blame the victims here. Let's not blame the people who are going through it. Let's blame the people who are in charge of the systems of oppression that we are forced to live, work and play under. Let's do that. Capitalism is what's driving our economy. Why is no one funding this except venture capitalists? Capitalism, of course. This capitalist model even shows up at places where like the National Cancer Institute-- how can it not?--it's part of the same system: patriarchy. It's the old boys network that continues to dictate what med schools and nursing schools and probably PT schools and OT schools all of these places, dictating what all these schools are teaching their students.
Larissa Parson:Oh, fun fact! If you want to specialize in pelvic health, you don't get a unit on that in PT school. You have to go do extra work later. So you have to do extra training, or OT school. For both of them, you have to go find a pelvic health program that you can join and study in. So yeah, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And it's also like, the institutional fat phobia that shows up in the same places. Oh, you're peeing your pants when you run. You should lose weight. Really? Really? Come on.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, it's these biases. It's a lack of training. It's the systems of oppression. All of these things are contributing as to why we're talking more about breast cancer. And of course, it's important to talk about. No one here is saying it's not important to be talking about breast cancer.
Larissa Parson:Nope.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What we are saying is it is equally important to talk about something that affects every single one, not a single one, a good portion of the population. And that is not necessarily true, at least at this point. with breast cancer. These things are super important, too. It's a both/and.
Larissa Parson:I was gonna say it's a yes, and. Yes, let's talk about breast cancer, and let's talk about perimenopause. And let's talk about puberty. And let's talk about pregnancy. And let's talk about abortion. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So, just to sort of sum us up here... perimenopause, and menopause are these female troubles that are still antiquated terms, both in antiquated concepts and in how medical providers see them. Because they don't get any training on them, either. This is also extra stuff.
Larissa Parson:Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And how the general public, especially women, sees them.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Right. So we know that the best way to change this is to start talking about them and keep talking about them, with our friends with our families, and especially to make sure that people who do not have uteruses understand and see these not as vague female troubles, but as actual things that happen to the people with uteruses that they love.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, so let's just because this is the"how" here, right? We talk on Wondermine about the "how" and the "wow". tThis is one of those"how's". How to start having conversations like this with your right people, right relationships. So if it feels weird to talk about it with a male partner --maybe this is just not where you've ever gone before--start getting comfort around this by talking about it with one of those real right people (girlfriend, bestie) and then gain some comfort around it. And then bring it up to the male partner who do not have a uterus and who has no concept of what you're going through. And - who probably in their own family of origin - would never have known their mom or sister was dealing with something as common as perimenopause.
Larissa Parson:Or as common as cramps...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Or as common as cramps.
Larissa Parson:We can start there, too. We didn't even talk about like the awfulness of periods.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, Larissa tell us a little bit about how we can talk about this maybe in more of a safe space. If we don't have those folks.
Larissa Parson:Okay, so this is what I do in the Slow Burn. I host to weekly group conversations where we talk about the how of all this. We talk about how to have these conversations and sometimes we just vent about the world and that is what we do. So the Slow Burn is a place to be witnessed in your messy middle and your messy midlife.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So I feel like sometimes the conversations that I have -- and I know that you have too-- are I don't have those people out there in my life for whatever reason. COVID aside or even without COVID. And so this is one of these spaces that exist online, where we can show up in all of our fullness, and we not gonna see those people again for a couple more days, or maybe we don't even know them in real life. All good. So, thank you for that.
Larissa Parson:A lot of them we don't. Yeah, thank you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, can we close with what we're eating?
Larissa Parson:Ah, yes, I have a rave.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm excited.
Larissa Parson:I'm sorry, if you're not local to me, because I have a total rave. If you are local, and you have reached your limit on cooking for this time in your life, which happens to me quite often, I just don't have the spoons sometimes for it, you have got to check out Redstart Foods. We'll put a link in the show notes. I have tried a lot over this pandemic, a lot of make my life easier by letting me reheat food instead of cook options. You know, and some of them trick you because you think you're going to be reheating food, and then you're chopping vegetables for 30 minutes and very angry about the whole situation. This is not that. This is the best one of these things that I have tried. The flavors are vibrant and fresh. The portion sizes are generous enough that you have leftovers and you get your money's worth. I ordered a lot of food for this week. And it costs about the same as a grocery run when I plan meals for that many days. So you know, it's not like going to McDonald's for every meal cheap, but it's cheaper than a lot of takeout options. Like if I tried to buy my family this much food at takeout it'd be three times as much around here. Yeah. And so let me think, what was my favorite thing this week? I don't know. Because I haven't eaten at all. But there was a key lime pie in this week's order. That was delicious. I've been trying to like spread it out until I get my my CSA ordered today, because I'm just like, it's so good. I'm totally going to check out. I did not know about this. I'm kind of surprised this has not come up before. Yeah, it was on a thread in a Facebook group that we're both in. Somebody had asked about meal prep options. And I was like, oh, that's new. So I clicked over to it. It was so good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm totally checking it out. Mine is also local, so sorry, y'all. We are in an all veggie CSA that just started. And one of the things that I like about it is that it's very close by I don't have to go far because I struggle with getting in the car and leaving Durham. So this is really nice. It is every other Friday. So tomorrow is a pickup day. And there have been some super fresh veggies we've had. I've had some incredible rainbow chard, incredible. Did I have a snap pea? Um, lots of good greens. It's a really nice way to kind of have some things and just have them good to go in the fridge. Of course you need to do stuff with them. So that's the other part of it, but they do give you recipes. They are a local farm that I'm just really loving right now. I'm gonna see how it goes without fruit, because that's just not what they do. But I'm getting the strawberries from other places. So I'm doing fine with that. But that's a yummy new thing that I'm liking.
Larissa Parson:That sounds delightful. Oh, I forgot to say Redstart delivers to your door.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What?
Larissa Parson:Ah, that's the best part.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Gosh, totally checking out now.
Larissa Parson:Okay, so that's probably enough about what we're eating. If you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, you can head over to patreon.com/wondermine where you'll have access to our bonus episodes, and whatever other awesomeness Elizabeth and I come up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Mmmmm. We are so grateful every time you share Wondermine with friends. Writing us a review will help others find their "wow" and"how" of a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation.
Larissa Parson:And in the interim, you can follow us at@wonderminepodcast on Instagram. Thanks again for listening and we are so delighted that you're here.
