Wondermine
Wondermine
Season 2, Episode 7: How We Keep Going
Elizabeth and Larissa sum up this season's themes and leave us with some ideas about how to keep going, even when things seem hopeless.
Show notes (book links are affiliate links to Bookshop):
The Lost Apothecary by Sarah Penner
Miss Peregrine’s Home for Peculiar Children by Ransom Riggs
Hollow City by Ransom Riggs (Peregrine, book 2)
Library of Souls by Ransom Riggs (book 3)
A Map of Days by Ransom Riggs (book 4)
The Conference of the Birds by Ransom Riggs (book 5)
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coach, a movement teacher, a writer and podcaster, a mom to twins and wow, I am so tired of this BS.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a parent, a partner or rape survivor and writer. I talk and write about relationships, trauma and decision making. And I'm very ready for a break. Aren't we all? Yes.
Larissa Parson:If you're new here, hello. We're the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the Wow and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:If you would like to support the show, thank you, you can do that by visiting patreon.com forward slash wonder mind. And if you don't want to, that's okay, too. We're just glad you're here.
Larissa Parson:So this is the final episode of season two, where we've been talking about what we don't talk about and why.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow. But before we get started, as always, let's talk about what we're reading. Larissa want to start us off?
Larissa Parson:Sure. So I am for once not reading smut.*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow!
Larissa Parson:*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:OK
Larissa Parson:I'm reading a novel called The Lost Apothecary by Sarah Penner. It's pretty timely. It's a novel that switches back and forth between the past and a present day setting. And the past protagonists are involved in apothecary work. But specifically this apothecary deals in poisons, mostly for men who are not good men.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Great.
Larissa Parson:And also, sometimes it's about using abortifacients. And sometimes it's about herbs that you can take to have fewer cramps and things like that. So I'm like,'Oh, this is right, on topic'. And then the present day protagonist is a woman who has come to realize after 10 years that she completely lost her sense of self in her marriage and she's rediscovering herself while she's exploring London and specifically runs into an artifact from this apothecary shop and is like trying to connect all of the dots and figure out this hidden history of the apothecary. So really fun.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Ooh, yes, it is. I'm going to add that to my list because that sounds wonderful. I actually really liked that present past flip back and forth. That's a fave for me. So definitely a fan.
Larissa Parson:It's fun. It's not super heavy. It's just a light, easy read and I'm really enjoying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Nice. I didn't know until you said this that you are reading a book that is in London. Iactually just rediscovered the Miss Peregrine series:Miss Peregrine school for Peculiar Children. So Peculiar Children-- as opposed to normals--Peculiar Children are kids or adults who have some sort of fantastical, supernatural skill. And I found this series ages ago, probably when it first came out, and then I lost track of it during COVID and rediscovered it. I just finished the fifth book yesterday, Conference of The Birds. But Conference of the Birds is actually kind of some of the time spent in London, some of the time setting the United States. A delightful fantasy series, I'm a big fan.
Larissa Parson:I have not read those. So now I am adding them to my list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Whaaat?
Larissa Parson:I know...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, okay.
Larissa Parson:I know. I'll put them on my list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So very timely, what you're reading and what, what not necessarily what I'm reading. But way back in March. We introduced this season season two, with our theme: what we don't talk about and why. We came up with this topic after we both read an excerpt of a book on marriage that was published in the New York Times where there was lots of discussion about it afterwards. And if you're just joining us today for the very first time--"hello and welcome," --and it might make sense for you to kind of journey back to that episode where we set this up a little bit better. So lots of different response responses to that piece but really what interested Larissa and I was something that wasn't really talked about. And it's about the work that goes into love, and relationships. And so that got us thinking about all kinds of topics where things are off limits. Where they're not socially acceptable. Or stuff that we used to talk about and don't any longer things. Or subjects that we discussed, maybe with only our close friends or people who like family that we feel really, really safe with, etc. So we started with two topics that used to feel very off limits and are now mainstream in a way that most of us probably could not have predicted, topics that feel very relevant, especially in
this moment:abortion and politics. And we ended our season's topics last week with ambition. So there's a lot we could have covered. And some of it is discussed in the patron bonus episodes, so go there and listen more if you'd like. But there's some things like the mothering, the work that goes into mothering and parenting, that we left on the table, maybe as a little snack for a future time. So we didn't cover everything that we came up with, but we covered a lot.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, and there's just so much that we don't talk about, culturally, you know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:And some of our other topics included perimenopause and desire and self care. And we both feel that those things are sometimes hard to get personal and honest about. But it's also really, really important to talk about them. And to talk about the structural pieces that disrupt our ability and desire to talk about hard things. That was a complicated sentence. So to break it down a little bit, we we looked at the micro scale of things. What did these topics look like for us, and maybe for listeners, like you. And the macro scale of things. What influences us? What gets in our way with these topics? When it comes to the systems that we live, work and play under, what gets in the way? Despite our best efforts, these systems have influenced the decisions that we make.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:This is what happens when you co-create something and you're using a shared Google Doc and...(laughter from Larissa) and so here we are, and it's so beautifully imperfect. And here we are today, right? So some of us some might say that women--and really what it comes down to it, that's the majority of our listeners --we can see from multiple factors that we are are actually in a worse place today than they were when we started the season way back in March.
Larissa Parson:In a short four months.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:In four months look what's happened. And you know, on my bad days, I would absolutely agree we are in a worse place. And yet, despite fatigue and anger and fear, and all of these big dark emotions, I just can't fold myself into like a fetal position and live on my bed, curled up all the time, even though that's really tempting. Especially these days. So where does that leave us? Where do we go kind of from here? What do we do when things do you feel really bad? And I think it's totally fine to take to our bed and be sad. And what else can we do?
Larissa Parson:Right? Yeah, first we feel our feelings, whatever they are.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:Anger, fear, despair, totally fine to feel those feelings. And then we remember that there are also other feelings available to us and other experiences available to our bodies. So number one, pleasure matters. Pleasure matters. Joy matters. Delight matters. Because without them, we don't have hope. In every post apocalyptic movie, there are always little moments of delight. And those moments help us hold on to the idea that humanity, that the experience of being human is worth it that's worth continuing. All my Star Wars fans know what I'm talking about. *chuckle*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, we do.
Larissa Parson:*laughs* There's that little glimmer, that little spark of hope. And pleasure is really essential to that experience of being human. Just as much as grief and sorrow and pain and anger and all the other feelings. Elizabeth, I love your smile.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:*laughs*
Larissa Parson:I love your smile so much *both laugh*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh gosh, I'm here wondering if Larissa is thinking -- y'all this is so important, I hope everyone's taking notes -and it's just really like delightful to hear about Star Wars and have that come up. That's very special to me and I'm also like (lowers voice) 'is Larissa talking about early Star Wars, the ones that I liked because I only like the three original ones?' And I'm thinking about Han Solo and in the end that you know, that can be kryptonite(laughter)...wait, what's the thing he's in?
Larissa Parson:Oh my god! I'm 45, Elizabeth. You just asked me to recall an actual noun.*laughs*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:He is trapped in...
Larissa Parson:He is trapped in the freezy thing...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes!! And I'm like 'that's the hope I'm talking about God dammit.'
Larissa Parson:There's a line from one of the recent movies that was percolating through my mind. But it's also in that first movie in the first trilogy. Not the line but like, just thinking about Leia going to Obi Wan and saying "you're my only hope".
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. You are my only hope.
Larissa Parson:She knows that there's somebody else out there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yep.
Larissa Parson:And that there's a reason to persist.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:And there are all these moments of ---just to stay on Star Wars for one more second here--
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah.
Larissa Parson:There are all these moments of delight and pleasure and joy, woven through those movies, even though it's on a like a galactic Civil War scale. Yeah, there's still all of these fun things.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And things are really bad.
Larissa Parson:Things are very, very bad.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Things are really bad. I mean, we don't need to get too like deep into this. But I sometimes think that we think you say, or I sometimes I'll say just speak for myself, I say 'this is a great series'. And there's like good versus evil. And things are actually really, really bad for a lot of this series. Things are pretty dire. And when you say "civil war" like yes, this is totally what's going on in Star Wards. So, so yeah, yes to all of that. And I don't mean to distract us. But I do want to come back to that main point that you're saying that, you know, feel our feelings and like, pleasure matters. Yes, delight is important. Joy matters. Because without them, we don't have hope.
Larissa Parson:And we need hope to make change.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And we need hope to make change.
Larissa Parson:Because if we don't, why are we bothering trying if there's no hope?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Larissa Parson:So yes, things are bad now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah.
Larissa Parson:And something else we can do, in addition to like, oh, pleasure. Yeah, let me enjoy my coffee. Let me read memes while the world burns - that's one of the memes going around right now. But something else we can do is figure out what we do have agency over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah.
Larissa Parson:What can we do?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:You sort of neatly set this up for me because one of the things that we can do, something that we do have agency over, is connecting with our right people connecting with right relationships. This is not gonna come to anyone as some huge epiphany here, because we bring it up in pretty much every single episode. Because it's always a tool that we can access at any point, if we want to. And yes, there are steps that we need to do to figure out who those people are. But it is also a piece that we can work with. So those right people, they validate, right? Like, as Larissa lovingly said above,'things are bad. Yes, Elizabeth, things are bad.' And in doing so our right people help us feel less alone. They help us feel less "crazy" and more "normal". Okay. {And I'm saying "normal" but it's an invented category, right? Like no one is "normal". Normal is an invented category, kind of like time is an invented thing. And closure is an invented thing. I'm also using "crazy" in quotes, because that can be a term that people can throw at folks who have persistent mental health issues in a derogatory sense. But I'm using it here because sometimes we talk about ourselves as crazy, right? Like,"I'm the crazy one. I am the one who is screwed up". } So our right people also do something like they remind us that we're not the problem. And this is a big one.
Larissa Parson:Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right? Because sometimes we're inclined to think we are the problem. The problem is us. And the thing that is wrong is the way that we're doing something or that we are the we are the dysfunctional one who can't make it happen. But the problem is the systems that we live under, they are not set up to support us at all. They are designed to work for and maintain power and comfort for are white men in the world.
Larissa Parson:Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So our right people do all these super important things for us. Like Larissa is doing right now. They're validating, they're reminding they're normalizing, they're supporting.
Larissa Parson:Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I have to say that I've had a lot on my mind over the last few months, as Elizabeth knows, beyond the problems of this country, on a deeply personal level. And I have really been leaning into my right people. And they've been right there, to do exactly that. And, and I will say, to commiserate at the same time on the state of the world, but to also say, and your problem is real - to validate, remind, normalize and offer support. And, I think that that's really important. Because just because the world is - I have so many words that I don't want to say it on a podcast - crapalicious, let's say, right now, it doesn't mean that your individual problems go away. And it's really important that to recognize that we all need our individual, right people and our support systems in order to strive for collective change as well.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes I get into a right people tangent, so I didn't want to go back to which is, you know, --
Larissa Parson:It's worth it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It is worth it! But what Larissa was saying before is figuring out what we have agency over, right? Because there are things that we don't have agency over. So this idea of like, what can I control? What's under my scope here?
Larissa Parson:Yeah, and part of that is talking about the stuff in general. So like, if we'd never talked about abortion, then we wouldn't know things like how important bodily autonomy is. We might know from other contexts, but bringing that into part of the conversation around abortion is really important. So, when we take a second to think about, okay, well, if body bodily autonomy is something that's important to me, then we can start thinking about what we can as part of what we have agency over. And then that can help us understand what our scope of activism would be in the context of the life that you're actually living. And that's one of the things you're right people can really help you with, is they can say, hey, so I know you're going through a really rough time with your kids. Maybe now's not the time to volunteer to walk people into the clinic. Maybe now's the time to work on helping them figure out their sense of bodily autonomy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:So, it's okay if we're making small things happen. It's okay if we're making ripples in what feels like a tiny pond.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I think sometimes, it's doesn't feel like it's okay. Because it feels like we shouldn't be making these massive big changes, right? Like, we should be out there really impacting the world in super big ways. And that is just --and some of us can do that and I think that's wonderful--and some of us can't, and that's okay, too. So if the"only" thing that you're doing to combat racism, sexism, misogyny in the world, is talking to your kids about it, about what we they are seeing and hearing and helping them be better kids than lots of US adults, that is still really good, important work that you're doing in the world.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. I think I might even argue that it's some of the most important activism that we can engage in, if that's what's available to us. It's performing love as an action. And it just occurred to me though, I'm sure someone else has said this before somewhere else. But, part of the reason that many of us whose primary work is caregiving, might devalue the impact of raising justice-minded kids is exactly because the systems we live in devalue caregiving work in general. So, if you're not out there making big structural change, what are you even doing? And I really think that attitude comes from the devaluing of doing care work, period. And I want to throw that out there for us to think about, that this caregiving work is essential labor, and raising children to be kinder and more equitable than the world they're growing up in is changemaking work on a huge scale that feels small.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It feels small, but it's huge. And this is such a beautiful and important point. Larissa caregiving work is essential labor. And just a side note, we're talking about Angela Garbes, new book about very same
issue Essential Labor:Mothering as Social Change in August's Wondermine book group. So head to the Patreon for more information. But raising kids to be kinder and more equity focused than our current world is absolutely change making activist work. Don't let anyone let them tell you differently.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Period. The end.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And the end. Um, can I jump in here briefly about resilience?
Larissa Parson:Yes, of course you can.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So I want to add a little bit here around resilience, and how resilience is really important to unlocking our own sense of activism. Resilience is not just about managing hard things. Okay. Resilience is also about managing the uncertain. So coming to terms with the stuff that we don't know, we can't ever know. So figuring out what our, (cough) our own sense of activism can and will look like helps fuel ourselves and build resilience in us. Right? Again, personal agency, right?
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What do I have control over? So unlocking that sense of activism can help us move from bed in fetal position to using those bad feelings that we have-- not, not*wrong*, bad, but things that feel like they're uncomfortable..
Larissa Parson:unpleasant.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, thank you-- to help us change the state of the world, or at least the state of our world, also important.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, and for us to decide what we actually have control over, and to work within the boundary of what we have control over can be really deeply liberating. Because it frees us from the idea that we need to do more than we are capable of doing. That boundary might include within it things like voting and writing to representatives. But it also, more importantly, to me, I mean, yes, vote, please vote. It also includes things like how we show up in our communities, in our homes, in our bodies every day. How do I show up in my body every day and where does that give me agency to do things in the world? What if I changed my attitude toward my body? And that means that my kid has a sense of greater agency over their body. And less pressure from outside things like diet culture. Elizabeth's making a face at me, because I'm getting off topic.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm making a face at you, because I'm so excited that we've wrapped in diet culture somewhere!(laughter) Because that's true, right? I think that's one of the things that when I hear like Christy Harrison--I read her newsletter-- and she's talking about things like diagnoses, that don't actually mean anything like leaky gut-- one of the things that she comes back to, even in her book, is think about all of the time that is spent managing diet culture in your life.
Larissa Parson:Uh huh.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we could spend that time doing something that builds resilience, that gives us our own sense of autonomy. We don't have to go out and like change a world again, like we can just do things within our own self in our own world. If we could put down some of these other pieces. So I just love this.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm glad I took that little excursion. I want to pick up on what you just said. We'll get back on topic on our on our little train here in just a sec. Making changes and freeing ourselves from things like diet culture, in our own world, we don't realize how much influence we have on other people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Say that again!
Larissa Parson:We don't realize how much influence we have on other people, unless they tell us. And they almost never tell us. It very rarely shows up. But when it does show up, you suddenly realize, 'Wow, there are all these people who don't even know me that I am influencing'. And it's not like either one of us is sitting here with a million Instagram followers. So it's not about having broad influence. It's about having deep meaningful relationships that spread a little bit of joy and self love and radical everything into the world. Radical acceptance maybe. So, to get us back on topic here, though. There is so much that we are responsible for in our day to day lives - so much. And there is so very little that we can really control. So when we talk about agency and autonomy, we're talking about what is actually my work here. Not picking up everything and feeling responsible for everything.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And that's really hard. Because it's really hard to not want to pick up everything because there's a lot of asks that are made of us on a regular basis. And it's hard to figure out which work is ours to say "yes" to?
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's a tricky thing. And also, there's socialization around like caregiving and giving more to people and taking care of others. And, you know, doing this kind of like a deep emotional labor, you know, so this is a tricky thing. But I want to just repeat something that you just said, because I really think this is an important nugget. There's so much that we're responsible for, and yet, so little we can control.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Anybody who has had long term relationships with young children that are more intimate than seeing them once a week knows that there's very little you can control.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Yeah.
Larissa Parson:Or long term relationships with adults - very little you can control.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Very little you can control, yeah.
Larissa Parson:But you feel responsible for a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. Um, is Han trapped in carbon?
Larissa Parson:Carbonite!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Carbonite!
Larissa Parson:Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It's called Carbonite?
Larissa Parson:It's carbonite.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Is that a real thing?
Larissa Parson:Is it really Carbonite?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What's carbon, then?
Larissa Parson:*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wait, carbon's a gas... (edited to say, clearly Elizabeth is NOT a chemistry person. Carbon is a solid.)
Larissa Parson:We know what carbon is *laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right. I'm out. I am not a chemistry person.
Larissa Parson:Yes, it's Carbonite.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay.
Larissa Parson:It's Carbonite. It's totally carbonite. Wow. Who has the entireoriginal trilogy memorized? I do. Can I recall that one word? No.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No.
Larissa Parson:No
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I got carbon. I got part of it. I got a couple of syllables.
Larissa Parson:Once you said carbon, I knew it was Carbonite.*laughing*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:There is yet one more reminder of why you need to your right people... you come up with a couple of syllables, they complete the word. (laughter) What?! What is this?
Larissa Parson:I love ending on this. (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So do I. And the only thing better than ending on this is thanking everyone who has been involved in this podcast. And really what that means is anyone who has literally ever listened to an episode, liked a post, shared something, wrote us a review, ignored the barking dog in the background, all of those things. We are so so grateful for all of you, beautiful people. One of those beautiful people --she's the best wrote!-- wrote in after episode four "Female Troubles". A big keeper in my mind. And she said ""ust wanted to let you know how much I loved episode 4-- congratulations, and THANK YOU for talking about these things! Nothing else like it. I can't imagine better stewards/shepherds of these conversations than you two. Love listening and grateful for the work you do."
Larissa Parson:That is just so lovely. This is exactly what I was talking about. We don't know until somebody tells you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We don't know, right.
Larissa Parson:I love that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And we don't recognize how much influence we have on other people unless they tell us and they usually don't. Okay, can we close with what we're eating? Do you want to go first?
Larissa Parson:Sure. So today I'm picking up my CSA.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, yeah.
Larissa Parson:In like 20 minutes as soon as we're done, and I got the spinach dip from Strong Arm, which I love. Oh, good. It's like spinach and there's some water chestnuts in there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I was gonna say it's water chestnuts. I've had this.
Larissa Parson:It's crunchy so you get the crunchy and it's cheesy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yep.
Larissa Parson:So I'm like, Oh, I feel virtuous for eating green things not virtuous. Like there's no bad foods, y'all. But I feel like Oh, I'm supposed to eat more green things and I want to eat more green things and often don't so yay me, meeting my goals.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yay you.
Larissa Parson:So yum, yum, yum, yum. I also bought a coke this afternoon and that was delicious because I don't drink sodas that often. It was just so good. Fuzzy - fizzy. I can't, words. Fizzy and sweet.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Fizzy and sweet. Fuzzy, I think would have worked.
Larissa Parson:Kind of fuzzy in your mouth in a pleasant way.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:My child very early on when she had seltzer for the first time she said it was spicy.
Larissa Parson:Spicy is one of my favorite kid words. *chuckle*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I love it!
Larissa Parson:What about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, well I'm on a streak and it's a streak of all pure good from Phoebe Snack Service. I am late to the game..way late apparently. She started during the pandemic like Strong Arm and going solid. I have ordered three times, and it is phenomenal. Okay, here's what I've eaten that's amazing. She has something called like World's Delicious Hummus and it is so so good. I mean, hummus?! I go through that whole container and it is so stinking good. It is amazing I also ordered something called plum butter. And it is just as good as you would imagine plum butter would be. So I think there may be a little bit of ginger in here. I'm not sure my husband's like "there's also little bit cinnamon". So it came, I put it in the fridge. I mean, I'm assuming it's supposed to be refrigerated. But it kind of is like almost like a chunky sort of coulis-like kind of texture to it. I had it on a bagel. Absolutely delicious. So, so good. We had this incredible breaded eggplant with her homemade tomato sauce. It's delicious. It's also a different day than will your see your strong arm is Thursday. Mine is Saturday. So Phoebe Snack Service on Thursday afternoon. Love it.
Larissa Parson:That sounds amazing. I am opening a tab right now on my browser.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yep, do it.
Larissa Parson:Because clearly I need to give them a try.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:Um, so before we wrap up, I just want to shout out myself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, please!
Larissa Parson:And mentioned that I have spaces for one to one clients and there's always room for you in the Slow Burn community to talk about the wow the how the agency that what is yours and what is not yours - all of that good stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. Connecting with right people and safe spaces looking at the yes and pleasure delight all of that. Thank you, Larissa.
Larissa Parson:Thanks. If you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, you can head on over to patreon.com/wondermine where you'll have access to our bonus episodes and whatever other awesomeness Elizabeth and I come up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We are so grateful every time you share Wondermine with friends. Writing us a review will help others find their "wow" and "how" of a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation.
Larissa Parson:And between now and our next season. You can follow us on Instagram@wonderminepodcast. Thanks again for listening. We are so delighted that you've been here with us
