Wondermine

Season 3, Episode 2: How We're Defining Community

• Larissa Parson & Elizabeth M. Johnson • Season 3 • Episode 2

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Larissa Parson:

Welcome to Wondermine, Season 3. I'm Larissa Parson. I'm a body liberationist, a writer and podcaster, a mom to twins and a big fan of an afternoon cup of tea.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a writer, a reader, a parent and an eater. You can find me at emjwriting on Twitter and Instagram, and I also post an occasional substack called ripe time.

Larissa Parson:

And if you're new here, Hello. We are the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the wow! and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

If you would like to support the show, you. thank you, you can do that for as little as $5 a month by visiting patreon.com/wondermine, and you get monthly bonus episodes and our monthly book club.

Larissa Parson:

But before we dive in to this episode, what we always start with is what are we reading? And we end with what we're eating - just as a heads up for those of you who may be new to the podcast. Elizabeth, do you want to go first with what you're reading?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yes, I do. Larissa, I am reading a book that I brought along with me. She was like, and I'm ready to show everyone and no one can see this except you. So I'm not sure why I brought a prop. Show and tell. Oh, it's like very glaring. I am reading the grit. And no, sorry, I think it's called Elizabeth Taylor, The Grit and Glamour of an Icon. So I've been sort of deep diving into, like, I don't want to say old Hollywood actresses, although I think she does sort of fall into that category, because I keep getting into this little, little rabbit hole of how many of them had experienced sexual abuse early on in their life. So far, I don't think that's the case with Elizabeth Taylor. But this is a newer biography of her. And she's someone that I feel like I kind of like, came of age with and she shares my first name, which I love. So it's pretty interesting, actually. And I'm a big movie fan. And I love stories and a lot of, feel like a lot of movies, and we've talked about this too, like a lot of entertainment doesn't give me as much of a story as I want. And I really craved the story. So I'm getting a lot of who she was as a human besides being an actor, so I'm enjoying that so far.

Larissa Parson:

Awesome. That sounds great. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Nice.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

What about you? What are you reading?

Larissa Parson:

Two things. I started on You Just Need to Lose Weight by Aubrey Gordon.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Oh, you did? Okay.

Larissa Parson:

Uh huh. For book club.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah.

Larissa Parson:

And I'm about I just got through like the first chapter so far. It's very Aubrey. It's wonderful as always. And then for fiction I am reading. Now, I made the mistake of not bringing along my book and so I can't tell you exactly who the author is. I'm not looking at it. But it's called the Encyclopaedia of Faeries. It's fun. It's like, it's enjoyable. The narrator of the novel is a dryadologist, a studier of fairies. There's a whole dryadology department at Cambridge that she's in and she's one of the youngest members of the department. She's off doing fieldwork in a cold Northern European location, and interacting with different kinds of fairies, common fae, high fae, like all of this stuff, so it's, it's just really fun. It's a nice twist on fairy stories because I feel like I've read- I read a lot of fantasy that is based with or that has a lot of fairies in it. I read a lot about fairies, fairies, fairies, fairies all the time. And and this one is like it's different. It's a different approach to that story, which is really fun.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Is it YA, or no?

Larissa Parson:

so far pretty YA.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I wasn't sure.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm like, halfway through and nobody has been naked. But there have been various women in the town coming in and out of her colleagues' room in various modes of undress. So maybe older ya but there's nothing explicit so far. Okay. You know, it's hard to tell for me, Elizabeth. It's very difficult because I read smut. But that is definitely not YA.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Like some good, good. I was gonna say, I think sometimes it'll tell us like on the back of it, and I'm always thinking is this isn't I said, So isn't it? Yeah.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah. I would have to go actually look at it to tell you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Okay, I'm gonna say Next time bring your prop, Larissa.

Larissa Parson:

Mature YA. They know that sex exists.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Okay. Okay, gotcha, gotcha got this sounds like mature YA? Um, okay. So our theme this season is community. And we're using a very big definition of community as our umbrella for our conversations. So while we can define community many ways, what we are saying here, for our purposes is that community is that huge group of people, you know, in real life and online. So they are social media friends, they are right people and right relationships, they're family, they're colleagues, they're professional connections, they're church connections, they're people in your kiddo's school or schooling community. So huge, huge group.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah. So basically, it's like everyone who matters to you, but a bunch of other people also. Yeah. And then why is it so important for us to define it this way, to, to notice that so many people that we might not otherwise define as community are also part of our community, if that makes sense?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. Yep. So I think it's important to notice how many people actually make up our community, because they're always influencing the decisions that we make. So to back us up a little bit to last season, definitely. I like to think of this visual of a lasagna, when I think about all the things that we, that goes into how we make decisions, right? So there are and so how we how we make decisions, including the big themes that we talk about here on Wondermine, so joy and rest and liberation, and, and, obviously, like relationships, and pleasure. So all of these pieces, and of course, our season theme here of community. So there's three core ingredients of the lasagna, we've got noodles, we've got sauce, and we've got cheese. So sauce is culture. And that includes things like systems of oppression, like patriarchy, white supremacy. Cheese is our lived history. So that's including things like our trauma history, right? And noodles are community. So these are the three pieces that are influencing the decisions that we make, always right, you can add other stuff in. We don't want get too complicated here, we can add other things in like our values or other pieces. But these are the pieces that are always influencing the decisions that we make. So we need to talk about this because community is such a big group, community is this huge number of people that we know, in real life and online, as you just said, the people who matter to us and then a bunch of other people. So they're also people that we can be in relationship with. Okay, they're not one and done people. Right. And I want to just kind of pause there, because that's actually kind of a lot of information right now.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah. So we're talking about your social media people, right people, right relationships, that kind of stuff. And I want to make sure that I jumped in with a couple of distinctions here. Because, like, I'm guessing that some of y'all are going wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, but I'm also part of the queer community or the black community, or, you know, the poly community or whatever. Like, you might be thinking, I'm also part of these other communities, and how do those fit into this idea, and just hold your horses there. We're gonna get to it. We're going to talk about that later this season, about like, some of the broader definitions of community, some of the broader communities that we belong to, communities that form around things like identity and interests and location. So for all of y'all who are like, but but but but I'm part of the Totoro fan community. Yeah, I know. So um, I will get to it, I promise. But right now, we're just talking more generally, like, what does community mean? And maybe if we share some specific examples, that'll be a little more clear.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah. Because basically, last episode was sort of like catching us up and kind of here's where we're at, and a little bit of a primer. And this is our first real episode dedicated to this theme of community. Yeah, thank you for that important clarification. I think Larissa because people I'm sure wondering and questioning. So people in my recent class that I took over at Catapult who opted to stay in touch with each other people. Those are people in my community, this woman who like lives locally, I think, who made this gorgeous grapevine wreath for my front door for holidays. Not in my community. It's a one and done. She is lovely. I have her phone number, but there's just absolutely no way for me to stay in touch with her unless I literally start to build a relationship and kind of figure out how we can keep in contact. If she had an Instagram if she gave me the wreath and said hey, follow me on Instagram for more. I'm doing one for Easter or another holiday or I like to do xy and z, then yes, she would be in my community.

Larissa Parson:

Gotcha. Other examples? You have some more, I think.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Also, I'm Thinking like Kamala Harris, right? She's in my community. I follow her online, I pay attention to what she's saying. I was reading when she, reading what she was talking about when she was in Raleigh last week. I don't know her personally, of course. But if I want more from her or to feel like I'm kind of keeping up, I can see what's going on. I could see what she tweets, I could get Google Alerts, whatever I want to do. Governor of Florida, that evil man, not in my community, I don't know him. I'm not connected to him in any way. I don't follow him online. So some examples of like, who's in my community? And who's not? Larissa? What about you? Who's in your community? People, you know, personally? And don't? Who are those folks for you?

Larissa Parson:

Well, I would say I mean, like the people in my neighborhood are part of my community, I live in a neighborhood that's got a very strong sense of community. So that feels really clear and obvious to me. The friends that I homeschool with are part of my community, and that includes people who are part of homeschooling groups that I'm in, but that I don't have a deep personal connection to, but I see their names over and over, or I smile at them in the park or like I see their posts on a listserv, like they're part of my community, too. But, to me it feels a little bit more distant but if I wanted to make that connection closer, I could.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yes, yeah. So my brother in my community, right, my daughter's friend's parents like that, you know, the school, a school community, similar to yours in my community. Similarly, also a very tight neighborhood connection and community here, those folks in my community, especially those board members that I'm serving with, in my community,

Larissa Parson:

Right, the checker at the Co Op - someone I see every day when I walk into the Co Op - part of my community. But maybe like that one time that I go to the Food Lion that's like in South Durham, that I never go to, that checker is not really my community. Right, let's make that distinction between like people I see often people I don't see people who are part of things I'm part of. Yeah. What got...you were gonna ask a question.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I was gonna say, what do we notice about community? Like, what does all of this tell us these these these data points that we're offering, and like examples of who those people are, like real examples? What do we notice?

Larissa Parson:

So, we don't need to see people every day to be in community with them, but we do need to have repeated interactions with them. And we are in community with people with whom we have varying levels of trust or familiarity. So community is really big. It includes people that we may not even like as individuals, but they're still part of our community.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. So community with people with whom we have varying levels of trust, or familiarity. People that we don't necessarily see everyday people we may or may not like as individuals. Yes. So when you think about all of those people, how many people do you think you have daily contact with? Because you're talking about like, we don't see you? And you're at the Co-op and you see this checker every single day? So that's a good example. But like, what about people...and there's other people that we don't, but what about people, who are those people who have daily contact with? Um, you know, how many people do you think that is? Like, what does that number look like for you?

Larissa Parson:

It's so interesting, because there's different levels of contact, obviously. There's layers to that. But I'm thinking it's like 30, possibly more. Like, I have group chats and one of those has five other people, one has four other people. So right there, we're almost at 10. I've got a couple people I play word games with and we share our scores. So there's the 10, every day, all of these things are active. Then there's a stack of people that I'm texting all the time. So, you, my friend Kerri, a bunch of other folks. And that's like another six people. My dad is texting me every day. And then there's always somebody that I'm walking and talking with on any given day, whether it's taking a walk, talking on the phone or going in person. I had coffee this morning with my friend Shelly. Shout out to Shelly. We're getting up there. And that's just with your close contacts. That's that's not even like, oh, I went to the store and I talked to the checker and I talked to my neighbor on the street on my way to the store. And then I ran at this other neighbor on my way home and all of that. I haven't even gotten on to social media. I haven't even looked at Facebook.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. It really adds up to like, we can't really answer and when we kind of pause and like think about those numbers, like I'm sure my numbers could have close to 30 to 30. Also, it's like of course these people are gonna be influencing. Right. We have a lot of contact with them. Yeah, I mean, I think about my numbers like my father also, like we're texting every day we text back and forth about something. You know, it's you. It's my two sisters. It's Darrell and Tonya every single morning we're on Twitter, saying how are you? Have a good day. What's going on? There's at least 50 people, maybe not 50. But I'd say it's close to 15 people on Instagram that I'm specifically looking at. They're people who are not avid texters or who live in different time zones or whatever. Um, same for Twitter. There's a bunch of neighbors who I see on a regular basis because we're out and about, you know, including the ones that we walked school with. So that's like, you know, that's a lot.

Larissa Parson:

It's a lot. It's a whole lot. Yeah. And again, so many. So I guess at least 30. There right for me, too. those are the big ones. We're not even talking about the little ones, like we went to Starbucks last night and ran into the same barista who we had seen the week before. Or there's that one neighbor that you only see once a week when they're out doing the thing at the same time you're out doing the thing. Yeah, the thing is, yeah, yeah, so many, Yeah, easily. 30, 40, something like that. Right. And then I think there's also the kind of, I think of them as ripples, like when you drop a stone into a pond?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yes. And this is making me think of our episode on friendlove, bonus episode on friendlove, right? Because we have the ripples, what do we call them ripples. I feel like we call them ripples. Maybe we didn't we call them maybe something different. But it's that's reminding when you said ripples. It's making me think of that like that varying level of degrees, right?

Larissa Parson:

I'm thinking of them kind of like when you drop a stone into a pond, and it's a big, big circle, and then it ripples out. Right? And like, they're the people that yeah, the front, like the people that like you're influencing, because somebody else is influenced by you. So like, I'll say, Well, my friend Elizabeth sent me this article, and I think you'll really like it and send it to somebody else. And you're not directly having contact with them. But because I'm the connector, we are, you are in some way,

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

in some way. Yeah.

Larissa Parson:

So speaking of sharing, should we pause for a quick ad? Yes. Okay. Yes. All right. Let me put on my advertiser voice.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Wow. That's good. I just go right into it. I'm glad. I'm glad there's a voice transition is there. There could be there. Could you set it up? Like there's gonna be so another

Larissa Parson:

We are so grateful. Every time you share Wondermine with friends, writing us review will help others find their Wow. And you can hear one of those reviews right now."Wondermine is my favorite podcast to listen to on a walk or when commuting. The show talks about all the big deep end good things, and I love the list of links they curate for each episode. Please give it a listen. If you haven't. It's wonderful." Thanks, Julie, for that review.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Reviews help people find us. So please consider giving us one. Thank you, Julie. We are also transitioning from our advertising voice to the fact that we are surrounded, like, getting back to your community. Now we definitely need an advertising voice. We are surrounded by a lot of people on a daily basis. And this means we have a lot of people influencing us.

Larissa Parson:

Right. So one of the things that is a lot easier for me now than it used to be, but it can still be tricky sometimes, is making sure that I'm still listening to that voice in myself with all of these other things coming in from outside. So it's to the values that I hold to the things that matter to me. And with so many interactions. And honestly, as a recovering people pleaser. It sometimes gets hard to hold on to some of that stuff. So like it's easy, it's really easy for me to stay the course on body liberation, I'm so committed, like that is really clear. But at the same time, I interact with people all the time who say things like I just feel better when my body is a smaller size. So and then I have to go let me put on my body liberationist hat for a moment and talk to you about that. And then I take it back off again. But this is maybe a good time to mention right people.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

This is a great, I mean I think it's always a great time

Larissa Parson:

to mention right people when do, when do, we not want to mention right do we...

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

not want to talk about right people is really the right question. Yeah. So yes, because we have so many people influencing us. We just talked about this 30 ish 35 ish for you 35 ish for me about the same amount. We have so many people influencing us, including in ways we don't notice and we're not even aware of like not even like intentionally seeking we desperately need our right people as a counter. Okay, and just as a refresher for for some of us out there, our right people are the safe trusted humans, with whom you have the same amount of power right like you're an equal playing field, which means you can be real and honest, they're accessible. They see you they help you be seen. They give as much as they get. It's kind of a lot of things going on there, but not too much. And it's definitely possible. So, Larissa, someone in my community, and one of my right people, ditto for my sisters, ditto for Naomi and Jackie, my brother, in my community, not one of my right people. Hmm,

Larissa Parson:

it's important to notice that distinction. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, yes. The right people are the people I turn to when something feels off. To me, like, I'm not clear on something that I need clarity. Or when I need to make a decision that isn't black and white and easy when it's got a little bit of gray. And they're the people who I know, I can give honest feedback to and who will, receive, who I will receive honest feedback from, as well.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Right, so like, right people, people we turn to when we need to make a decision. That's, you know, not a clear cut yes or no. And it's hard to make those choices because there's so many other people influencing us, which is why right people are so important. And we're going to talk more about right people and of course, sort of their parallel, right relationships, later in the season. But for right now, it just feels important to say that the community is huge. Since community is huge, and it's one of those factors that are influencing the decisions that we make, it's the noodles, right? Yeah. And those include things like, you know, the the choices that we make things like, you know, when am I going to take rest? How am I going to get movement in? What steps can I take towards like my own feelings of liberation? What is pleasure look like? You know, and also thinking to like something that you said on our walk last night, you know, I'm like talking with you about how this class was going that had just finished and then like, and I had told you a little bit about my like, dissatisfaction with how it was taught to the content was good, but how it was taught was a little challenging for me. And I said, "Maybe I should create a course for writers who want to teach other people to help them be better teachers." And you're like,"No." And I was like, "You're right. I should not do that, like not in any way." So our right people know our stuff. Right? They have that background. And they remind us of that stuff, too. When we get distracted by the world or influenced by, oh my gosh, maybe a capitalism is kind of like nudging me in the shoulder and saying be more productive Elizabeth. Right, because that's one of the pieces that influence us, including the rest of our community, too.

Larissa Parson:

I love that story. And but y'all, I just have to say, Elizabeth does this for me all the time, too.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

That's really good to hear everyone.

Larissa Parson:

Elizabeth says, No, you may not pick that other thing up. Don't you think you're a little bit over extended? So Oh, our right

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

people there, right.

Larissa Parson:

So like that some of the big questions that they help us answer, how do we show up for each other? What does it look like? Like sometimes it can be something like, wow, I'm feeling like I really want to show up for this other person, talking a the right person. And I don't know how and then your right person might say, Well, can you do XYZ? And it makes it a lot easier. We talked about what it looks like to continue taking proper precautions for COVID. What does that look like for each of us? And we can talk about that what feels reasonable what feels like too much, what feels safe enough? And then like deep philosophical questions, what does a good life look like? It's not that we're sitting around going well, I think a good life is one where I am thriving at all times, though, we might be right. It's more like what are these little things that we're doing that add up to a life filled with liberation, joy, community, etc.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

And we'll talk more about this, but I think the thing here too, is that our right people are important because they also give us that sense of I'm also wanting this. It's okay to have this feeling. It is normal and common to do X, Y and Z here.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, they validate us.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

They validate. So because community is so huge and influential, we need to make sure we have right people. Right people support the choices that allow us to live our values, honor our boundaries, they champion us as much as they champion as we champion them. So community can, is, can be a distraction, it can distract us from what really matters for us and only that's something, that's only something that we can decide for ourselves, but our right people can help us stay on track. Right. Communities is a distraction because it's huge. It does it's diverse, it doesn't center us, right people are a little scalpel. Okay? They help us cut away the pieces that don't serve us and stay focused just like Larissa did on our conver... on our walk last night and the conversation that we were having.

Larissa Parson:

Exactly, exactly. Our right people. Let us, I mean, I keep thinking of like imagine you know how it is when you I know you don't get on Facebook much But like pick your social media. Yeah. outlet that you do engage with. And imagine just sitting there and trying to kind of process the firehose of information that was coming out, coming to you constantly.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah.

Larissa Parson:

Your right people help you kind of like hone in on what is true and right and important in all of the things that are coming at us all the time.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I think one last sort of piece here that I want to add. Because I, I didn't, I didn't read the whole thing. In fact, I kind of skimmed around, it's pretty, it's very academic in pieces. And that's okay. But it's also for such a lengthy book, it, it kind of has one of those fatal flaws that I struggle with, which is, here's all of the problems. And here's like, you know, all of like four pages on solutions, which I always just tend to disregard. But there's a book called Belonging, and it made me think about what it means to belong. And belonging is something that happens with our right people. And in with our right relationships, we feel like our most authentic selves, we're allowed to be our most authentic selves. Community are those encounters outside that bubble. Okay, so belonging is that just that deep sense of like, self and safety and comfort in a space, and that can be really hard. And we'll talk more about this and in future episodes, but our right people really help us get to that those feelings, they generate those feelings within us, because we can be who we really are when we're those people. But unfortunately, community are all of the other encounters that can happen outside that safety bubble.

Larissa Parson:

That is so interesting, Elizabeth, and I'm like thinking about this. And I'm thinking about like, oh, and when we're talking about this, we should this I'm going to put a pin in this for when we get to our, but the broader communities we belong to, because I think a lot of the sense of belonging in terms of identity communities is because it feels like this is a safe place for me to express this part of myself. Or this, or who are my whole self fully. Yeah. And so. But that's different from like, big picture. This is. This is the community we live in. It's just a little it's a little bit different from that. Cool, very cool.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Thanks. Um, anything else is on your mind, or should we go into like, like, What are we eating? What? Do you want to go first to me to go first? You're like, I don't even know what I'm having.

Larissa Parson:

You know, me, so well. Oops. Oops. Did I think about what I was eating today?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I thought you had some leftovers, don't you have.

Larissa Parson:

Let me talk while rhapsodize about my leftovers. I have some amazing leftovers from Lime and Lemon, which is a local Indian restaurant. There are several different locations, in case you needed me to say that as an ad.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

No, I thought there's only one.

Larissa Parson:

There's one on Ninth Street in Durham, and there's one down in like Chapel Hill or Carrboro. And I think there's another one on the other side is around like South Durham or Cary or something like that. Or Raleigh or maybe it's I don't know where it is, somewhere. Anyway, I have some mango lime chicken. And I have a parotta. And a little bit of raita. And I think I'm going to have that for lunch. And just enjoy it. It's going to be delicious. It's like a little spicy. Just the right spicy a little creamy. Good. Yeah, good combo. I'm excited.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

That's that's a good lunch because it's sunny. But it's also like really cool, too.

Larissa Parson:

You know what? I was outside today. It's not that cold anymore. What it's like, out there.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

It wasn't really. It's beautiful. Well, the sun probably warmed up. That's the great thing about North Carolina is when the sun comes out. It does feel warm. Yeah. Oh gosh. I am eating lasagna. I just started making a sauce. I'm dropping off dinner for a neighbor who they just had a baby. And so I'm making a a lasagna for them. She's not listening. I'm making lasagna, actually it doesn't matter because it's come out so much later, making lasagna and getting them some salad and some bread and I'm gonna make cookies or something I was thinking about. It is so hard to find, speaking of things we're eating, because I guess everyone's eating it, cream and heavy cream. Have you looked for either of these things recently? They are constantly out at Food Lion and they were at they were out at Teeter for awhile. I don't know what's happening there. I don't know if it's a national shortage. But I was gonna make a bread pudding, but I need I need cream. I need half and half for that. And it is really hard to find right now. And I'm and I'm also that person who's like, I don't really want to go to Whole Foods and get the most expensive kind, I really want to get the cheap non organic kind. So it may not be bread pudding, but that's anyway that's what I'm working on making lasagna. My sauce so far is really good.

Larissa Parson:

Nice. I love that you're making lasagna on the day that we're talking about lasagna Oh,

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

wait, I totally didn't get it. I laughed. No, I did not get that it just went right over my head. Okay. Okay.

Larissa Parson:

Well, it sounds delicious. Thank you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Um, what else are you to say? Yes,

Larissa Parson:

we have to finish off and say if you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, head over to patreon.com/wondermine, where you'll have access to our monthly bonus episodes and to our book club.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

And if you would like to sponsor the show, which means we give you a big shout out in the beginning, middle and the end, head to wondermine.com forward slash contact and reach out to us there. And in the interim, you can follow us at Wonderminepodcast on Instagram. Thanks again. We're so delighted that you have been listening

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Elizabeth M Johnson

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