Wondermine
Wondermine
Season 3, Episode 3: Trauma and Community
Elizabeth and Larissa discuss how interpersonal trauma affects the way that we're able to show up for and be present in community.
Referred to in the show:
Robin Coste Lewis, Voyage of the Sable Venus and Other Poems
Elizabeth reads the poem “The Mothers," which you can read here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/58757/the-mothers
Alexis Hall, A Lady for a Duke
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine season three. I'm Larissa Parson, I'm a body liberationist, a writer and podcaster, a mom of twins, and a big fan of my morning coffee.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson, I'm a writer, reader, parent and eater. You can find me at EMJwriting on Twitter and Instagram. And I write a very occasional Substack called Ripe Time.
Larissa Parson:And it's such a good one. Thank you. If you're new here, hello. We're the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the wow and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:If you would like to support the show, thank you! You can do that for as little as $5 a month by visiting patreon.com forward slash wondermine, and you get monthly bonus episodes and a monthly book club.
Larissa Parson:So before we dive in, we always want to start with what we're reading. And then we end with what we're eating. Elizabeth, do you want to go first and tell me what you're reading right now?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Sure. I'm reading Robin Coste Lewis's 2015 book of poetry called Voyage of the Sable Venus. And it's a lovely collection that I found via a Hilton Als piece in The New Yorker in December about Lewis who I had no idea who she was. She is a black mom. Um, she is queer. She is a poet and a teacher. She lives in Los Angeles, I think, her family's from New Orleans, something like that. But she lives in Los Angeles currently, and will link to the article in the show notes. But I just, I really liked this piece. I'm just gonna read it really briefly. It's called "The Mothers." We meet, sometimes, between the dry hours between cliffs in the involuntary plan, refusing to think of rent or food, how civic the slick dissatisfied from man and democratic a Lucky Strike each we sponge each other off. While what's greyed in and grey slinks ashamed down the drain. No need to articulate great restraint. No need to see each other's mouth lip, the obvious. Giddy. Fingers garnished with fumes of onions and garlic, I slipped back into my shift, then watch her hands, wordless. Reattach her stockings to the murdered rubber moons waving at her garter. Not fun, I loved it. There's like so much going on there that I was really like, Oh, this is neat. So really, that's where I'm at right now enjoying this very much. I love it. What about you? What are you reading?
Larissa Parson:So I have been I just got started reading Alexis Hall's A Lady for a Duke, which is, you know, like the, the title is like, Oh, this is a historical romance as is, but it's one with a twist, the female main character is trans. And she was best friends with the male love interest before her transition, and she gets injured at Waterloo as a soldier. Okay, and then comes back having made this transition. Hmm. And so and then they of course, meet again. And she's Yeah, and we see what happens. Like she's so far where I am. She's just like, does he know who I really am? Or who I was? Or like, you know, like, does he know the relationship that we, does he know the relationship that we had before? Because they were very, very close friends, like, and, and this guy is all broken up over her supposed death. He thought that she had died. So he's you know, grieving this loss of this, of this dear companion and friend. And so I'm very excited to see how it all unfolds.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:How far are you into the book?
Larissa Parson:Not very. Oh, not very simple. Like a lots happened pretty quickly. Yeah, just like just like a quarter, maybe a third of the way through? I think not very far. Like, I keep reading it at night and am very sleepy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay. All right, then. Yeah, Lady for a Duke put it on your list.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah, it's really good. It's very sweet so far. Um, so today we are going to talk about trauma and community. If you are a new listener, this is not the best episode to start listening to us with which to start listening to us. Our theme this season is community and each episode this season is going to build off of the other. So you should probably go back to Episode One. And start there if you're brand new to us, because you'll get a, like a summary of where we've been before, so that you know where we're going now. And if you're really in a rush, then you could just start with Episode Two for a primer on how we're talking about community. And that will help ground you for this conversation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So when we were planning this series of episodes for this season, I wanted to make sure that we are in that we're including how impact of trauma affects our ability to build community and of course, how we see each other, how we see ourselves, and we see others in the communities that we are existing in. And so I don't, I think we're, you know, other people that we've talked... Larissa and I have talked a lot about attachment styles, kind of like not here in this space, but kind of offline. And I, for me, I think we can't really talk about community without thinking about trauma. And so I'm talking about, obviously, all kinds of trauma, but most specifically here for my, most specifically here for our purposes, but also in keeping with what my own area of expertise is, is talking about interpersonal trauma. So, intimate partner violence, neglect as a child violence in your family of origin, sexual abuse in any capacity, things like that. So, because trauma not only impacts how we relate to others, specifically how we trust or don't trust others, it also influences how we see ourselves. So I come to this work with a background in interpersonal trauma. So the trauma that's happened in the relationships that we are in with others, so whether that's family of origin, or a partner relationship, so we're going to be limiting the scope of conversation a bit here to interpersonal trauma, and that's impact on community. But obviously, when we think about living in a warzone, or going through a natural disaster, when you lose parts of your members of your family, or you're injured in some way, obviously, that's going to also impact communities that you identify with, communities that you feel like you're a part of.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah, exactly. I just want to pull out like a little, a little bit more on that main point that we're talking about here. So the reason that we need to talk about trauma today is particularly about how we have learned to cope with our trauma, how we've learned to respond to things because of the trauma that we have experienced, affects the way that we show up with ourselves with our friends, in the larger community, in the world. Like there's there's no interrelating with other people that isn't affected by our trauma histories. And so that has ripple effects out into the community as a whole in terms of how we react when things happen in our communities, as well.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Absolutely. So for our purposes, here, just as a little bit of a refresher, we're defining community as this really big group of people that you know, in real life and online. And so those are social media friends, those are work colleagues, or professional associations, those of course, your family of origin and chosen family, those are friends. Those are folks that you maybe volunteer as part of a team with those are book club people, those are church connections, all that we're surrounded by a lot of people on a regular basis, which means we have a lot of people influencing us, yes, and this can be hard for trauma survivors for a number of reasons. It can feel really overwhelming when we have a lot of different voices, sort of metaphorically speaking here, not that people are shouting us, but a lot of different voices coming at us on a regular basis. Who do we listen to? Who won't hurt us? Who can we trust? Who do we allow in? So basically, the big question here is like, Who can we trust, right? When we have so many different things kind of coming at us? Right? We have something that that our church connections are telling us, or a priest, or someone else, and then we have something our family's telling us, and then we have something our friend says, and they're also this person that we follow on social media says this.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And how can we trust ourselves to discern who we can trust? How do we, how do we trust ourselves? How do we, how do we feel what trust feels like, in the first place? And like, we need to feel trusted, we need to trust people. And that's all part of developing self trust, too. So we're like, okay, how do we get there? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So and I think that this is, this is I feel like in some ways, it's kind of like the million dollar question because in my mind if the other side of the coin of like, you know, how do we, how do we, how do we love someone? How do we? How do we accept love? How do we give love? And I think there's, they're, they're similar, right? Like, I don't think and this is sort of when we go back to, I think it's Season Two or season one where we're, I'm talking about the influence of someone like Bruce Perry in the work that I've, that I've done, you know, he would say that this idea of like love yourself first is, is really a lot of bunk. Because one can't just do that automatically. We have to feel the love from the outside safe, trusted people before we can then understand what that's like, internalize that, and then reflect that back out to those people who are deserving of us. And I think trust is something that's very similar, right? I need to feel your trust within me, Larissa, before I can start to sort of say, Okay, this is what it might look like if I put myself out and start to trust her, you.
Larissa Parson:Exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So, like, interpersonal trauma, like any kind of rape or abuse or neglect is usually perpetrated by someone that we know. And so of course, there are going to be these situations where we are hurt by someone who is an absolute stranger to us. But that's that is definitely the minority of most interpersonal trauma. So that's, that's the, it's not that it does not happen. But that is in the minority. So most of the time, when we're hurt, we're hurt by someone that we know. And when we're hurt by someone that we know, trust is obviously lost. Trust is lost, it's really hard to feel connected to other people. Because it can be hard to get to the vulnerability that you need in order to get to trust. So despite being in this massively large community, right, we might pull back because community is so large, again, lots of voices, lots of differing opinions, right? For the most part, it's hard to sift through to who we can trust, and who we should trust.
Larissa Parson:Yes. And so then we pull back, pulling back from people is this like, lack of connection, it's lack of feeling connection, the lack of feeling like we can trust people. And that, of course, leads us to loneliness and a sense of isolation. And then that turns into this kind of self perpetuating cycle of more isolation, leading to a bigger sense of loneliness. And we're lonely because we're isolated, and you can't alone yourself into connection with other people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right? Much as we would think that somehow that might work for us. Right? And it's not in we're not, I mean, no one's no one is laughing at someone else's expense here. But it almost seems like we should be able to suss this out on our own right, when we think about like bootstrapping, and like, be more resilient and kind of moving, just sort of, you know, move past it. But we can't. And I think it's important to note here, that isolation can really look different depending on the person. And we've talked about this a lot in past support groups that I've left, that I've led. So for one survivor, this might look like not allowing anyone into their home, right, home is their absolute safe place. It's the predictable place, it's the place where they know they can be themselves, and without any judgment or questioning, and they're absolutely safe and accepted there. Right. And for another survivor, maybe it means coming to group but you know, every once in a while, because even small groups can be overwhelming. You know, and so when we think about like, how this might show up in, in places it in other in other areas of our life, maybe this is the person who keeps some of those health care appointments, but not all of them. Because if there's someone who's also dealing with like, some chronic health conditions, there could be a lot of health care appointments and other pieces that just feel overwhelming to kind of continually go to, again, continually have lots of different voices coming to them. And that might feel safest to them for to sort of dial back how much they can dip into that. Yeah, I feel like I should say to this, this can look, too, like totally different. Like, for for anyone you know, for me, you know, I was told a lot when I was a kid that I was like, a lot. You know, I was taking up too much space. I wanted too much. I was so greedy. And I think sometimes in my own life with my own friends, I tend to take up less space because I really am remembering a lot of how I was seen that I'm needing attention, or I'm wanting a lot or I'm asking for too much. And so for me that sometimes translates into my theory, which does not always work out for me. Because it's probably not the best of like if you want to know something from me, you will ask because you would write like that's that's how I kind of temper it.
Larissa Parson:That's totally what happens, Elizabeth!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, absolutely. And it's interesting to kind of hear that from your perspective, too, because then you can see that, you know, so but I'm like, Well, if you want to know, you ask like, I'm the biggest open book in the world, you know, but if you don't ask, then I'm assuming you don't want to know. And I've taken enough space with what I have kind of going on. And we'll move on, I'll probably give you more space.
Larissa Parson:Let's be clear that Elizabeth like, I like it when you tell me things without asking, without my asking. So
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think this is good. Good to hear. Right? Again, nice to have this and we'll talk so much more about this in a future episode. But yeah, like these conversations, which we really don't have with friends, you know, how here's my tendency to show up this way? And this is why, you know, can you help me be better at whatever asking for help or taking up more space when we talk? Okay. Yes, um, but let me turn this around and ask you what you think the rest of us so like, here's the thought, you know, how? Well when when people intentionally withdraw themselves into the safety of their own world, you know, intentionally not necessarily meaning like consciously, but they just do it. Right. That's there's an act that's happening. Because that outside world are there so many voices can feel overwhelming, or triggering or intimidating or whatever. How does that, do you think, affect community?
Larissa Parson:So I want to, before I actually answer that question, I want to like put a pin in the idea that we are talking really specifically about this as a as a kind of a, like a trauma response, as opposed to like a disability situation or an anxiety situation. That is, that is a chemical situation and your brain. Like I just want to be really clear about that. Because I think that some people listening might go like, but I don't know, it's not about that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, right. And so right, like people who were like, who is agoraphobia? Like people who are like, really crippling anxiety, but
Larissa Parson:this is not what I'm talking about.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It's not we're talking about here. Yep.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, we're talking about Yeah, so I just want to make that really clear. So I think there are a couple of ways, aside from that, that this can go. One is that if no one knows that you're suffering, like, that you are having a hard time and that is why you are withdrawing, then nobody can help alleviate that suffering. And we have said over and over again, that we don't do this alone, you can't just go into your cave and come out fixed. But also, you're not broken, but, right, like, let's be really clear. And then number two, if you're always withdrawn into your own world, because the outside world is too much, you're also not contributing to community either. And like, the tiniest little asterisk exception is maybe like, if you are, in fact community to community. Maybe you're engaging with people in meaningful connection-building ways online, because that is the way that feels safe to you. But you're still building genuine connections. And like, we saw a lot of that in the first year or so of the pandemic, where we just we did have these real, actual human connections. And just but like, when that drops away, what are you doing? How are you engaging in your community? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So two important pieces, right? So when we withdraw, we don't give people the opportunity to step up and help us feel better, right? When we withdraw, and we're on our own, there's just no way we can generate feelings of belonging, we need other people to have to, to help us get to those feelings of belonging that are so important for us in order to trust. And in order to kind of build those, that broader community, which hopefully then will include right people. But also, we deprive the broader community of our presence, of the gifts that we have, of the insights that we can share, of the mentorship that we can offer. The experience that we have, we don't we don't, there's no way that we can make things better, better for all of us, basically, when we withdraw from that larger community.
Larissa Parson:Right? Right. So if we're not engaged, we don't make things better. And then because trauma influences how we see ourselves. And that also means like, how do we see ourselves in community? How do we see ourselves as members of this thing? as part as, like, belonging to groups, and we're gonna get into all the groups later, but like, how do we see ourselves as, as having a sense of belonging, when trauma is telling us something different? We can change that narrative. It's possible to change that the trauma, the narrative that trauma wants us to keep telling. And there's a lot of different ways that we can get into that, but I think I'm going to pass this over to you, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Well, I think that we can so one way we can like one way I can change the narrative, right, is I can remind myself that it is okay for me to take up space. You know that my thoughts that about my kid or my worries about XY and Z are something that are welcome with my right people. And I can remind myself of the words that you just said actually, that yes, you don't want me to wait to say, you know, what do you think about or what do you think whatever, what is up with that, in order for me to share those pieces? Right? Those are some ways that I can kind of change my own narrative and that I've worked on changing my own narrative around this knowing how this affects me.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, exactly. That's, Those are such great examples. The other thing we can do is take a page from Dr. Marisa G. Franco's Platonic, the book Platonic, we can assume that people basically like you, which is like, it's so simple. It's so sounds so simple, but it's really difficult in practice sometimes to do. But in general, people are primed to connect with other people, that is what we just all want to connect. So it is safe to assume that people probably like you, when they're first meeting you. That doesn't mean that everyone's going to be your best friend long term. And that would be ridiculous and impossible to expect. But you can start by assuming when you're meeting new people walking into a room full of strangers, that people are probably gonna basically like you, they're gonna basically be polite and kind.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, and that's just, I feel like sometimes can be. It's, that is like, right, that's like a good tool that we can sort of hold on to, right, yeah, go into a situation and just say, people are in it. Because sometimes it's sometimes it's helpful to, you know, we can talk about ourselves in third person or something like that. But just to remind ourselves, like, this is like actual science. This is not like anyone's opinion, this is exactly what Dr. Franco has talked about in the book that we really love, and that we've talked about at length in terms of how important it is to help us kind of like build relationships that matter and figure out who our right people are, we can just go in and assume that people will like us. Yes. Okay. When they're meeting us for the first time, people will like us. Yeah, so no matter what, isolation, right, so let's go back to that for a second, might look like due to trauma or the narrative that you tell yourself about your capacity for friendship, or who deserves to be who deserves you as a friend, or who you deserve to have as a friend? You know, there's still like, a really common factor that we really have to talk about here. And we just mentioned it, it's right people, and right relationships. Yeah, there's one thing that I feel like we've continued to stress for so long, and that's going to come up a lot this season is that these are so important for us, they are essential for us. Right. And that's really essential. It's essential, like food, water, movement, you know, whatever, all those other things are, what else is on our list? Sun, I guess? Yeah, um, you know, what else is out there? We, we need those people in order to help us parse through, right, like all of the voices that are coming at us, all the information that's coming at us, that's telling us things like, you're not good enough, because you don't look like this, or you you're not good enough, because you don't have this, or you're not XY and Z because of this, you know, whatever that is, we need the right people help cut through all of that. They help us feel understood and validated, heard and seen all of those really important things, you know, but despite all of that, right, it's still really, really hard to get us out into the world and find those right relationships and those right people because of past trauma, and other things for sure. But for right now, we're talking about that. Yeah,
Larissa Parson:yeah. So I just want to pick up on that a little bit, Elizabeth and say like, it's really hard to get out in the world and find the right people, the right relationships, when we feel like trauma is imposing itself on us in some way. And, and that doesn't mean that we should feel lesser, because of our trauma, if that makes sense. Like having a, like a, your trauma history doesn't just harm you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, and that's a really good lead in for me and I, and this is something that I've talked about before and I kind of get mixed responses on. But I'm gonna say that I do think there can be elements of a trauma history that can be a gift for us, and I've talked to other trauma survivors about it. And I think that, you know, we need to kind of, I really want to be clear that, you know, there's that I'm not saying something like Um, you know, I got over this and look how much better a person it made me like, that's definitely not what I'm saying here. But what I am saying is that sometimes trauma survivors have little bits of gifts in the way that they relate to other people that others do not have.
Larissa Parson:It. Yeah, I think it's really important to say this isn't a What doesn't kill you makes you stronger kind of thing. Yeah, this is just Yeah. Like, like our lived experiences contribute to the totality of who we are, including our strengths. Yeah. And I like, I think, you know, when I think about this for myself, based on my own, lived experiences, my temperament, what how my brain works, things like that, I am really sensitive to a lot of things. And that makes me really good at kind of hearing and validating other people's experiences and reassuring them about what's okay about being who they are. Like, that is, that's one of my my skills, and it's totally a strength. And it's the strength that I bring to lots of different relationships, to friendships, to romantic relationships. And especially also to honestly, the relationship that I'm developing with my kids is one of the things I'm really good at is like hearing them and validating them.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I think that's a. So that's an important piece right there. They're absolutely these these elements that kind of come to us as a byproduct, I think of a traumatic experience or something that feels like a trauma. Remember, we get to define what's trauma to us. Yeah. And the fact that you're saying is that it actually is something that you use in a variety of different relationships. Yeah, you know, so I think that's a really kind of key piece that I just want to like, you know, pin there a little bit. So one of those gifts, I believe, is this deeper connection to intuition. And I know this is a little woowoo. And if you've ever met me, I'm pretty much the least woowoo person you'll ever meet.
Larissa Parson:That's why we're the weirdest friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's why we're very a very odd couple here, I think. But I'm like, totally not woowoo. But I'll tell you, I have an other. I, when I've talked to other survivors around this, they are also the one to be like, Well, I'm not a crunchy person. But I will say that I do feel like I am more intuitive than other people, I noticed things. And it's that I feel things before I have the firsthand knowledge of a situation. And I will absolutely agree with this, I can think of you know, so many different situations where I've been like, you actually are not a safe person. Or this is maybe a situation that I'm concerned about, and we're just gonna go the other way. And it shows up with random strangers. It shows up with in in partner relationships. Absolutely. As you're saying it shows up in, you know, in my ability to kind of like, connect with my child, and of course, like friends and other situations. So I think that is absolutely one of those pieces here.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So I think this is this idea is like, you know, trauma being an impact on our ability to build community there. Is there is this, which we introduced sort of season one is this idea of yes and, right. Yes, And, I may be more inclined to perhaps kind of intuit what you need in a certain situation, not all the time. And certainly, like not a flawless perfection, kind of like I'm always on it, no, or what is needed from the situation or what I should avoid. But I'm also sometimes probably a little bit more inclined to give more than I quote unquote, should because I am super sensitive to others and kind of pick up on things. Maybe more than others might.
Larissa Parson:Right and then I'm going to think that that is one of those places where we get to spend a lot of time playing with and growing is like, what is too much, what is enough to give here? And, and, and how wonderful it is to be a friend or a person in your life who gets to receive and then give back.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. Um, anything else we want to say about that? I feel like this is a one there. There might be questions on and if there's questions just kind of toss those to us via via social media. Yeah, you want to want to want to close unless there's something else and close with what we're eating.
Larissa Parson:Sure. That's what we're eating. I have a date with myself tonight.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, that's right. Yum, yum, yum, yum. Good.
Larissa Parson:But of course, you know me, Elizabeth, I could not resist texting a friend going to dinner together before my night to myself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh my gosh, did you really?
Larissa Parson:I do not know how to do it. I was like, if it's like we have dinner at 530 It doesn't count right? So
Elizabeth M. Johnson:you're too much you're too much
Larissa Parson:I AM too much!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It's so funny.
Larissa Parson:So I am going to enjoy my date with myself and I will probably pick up some sort of dessert to enjoy in my house by myself. After I see my friend, I just you know, like it's some sort of cake, some sort of pie something sweet, maybe like some special herbal tea to drink while I am chilling out this evening.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Hmm, where are you going to go for that? Are you going to the co op? Just because it's easy, and you can just walk there and get that? Are you going some like what are you thinking?
Larissa Parson:We're gonna meet up at Saladelia, so I'll check and see what they have, take something to go or or I'll run over to the co op, you know, kind of depends on the weather and and how much time I have later today to run. Maybe I'll go over there now and pick something up for later. Could happen.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Good. And you're on your way about you're over there. You should stop in, Or if they're not, if it's still open, their cafe at where the bakery part or whatever, at Guglhupf. They'll always have some good, good good stuff. And there's nice, those are nice, small, small sizes. They're not really sharing. So yes,
Larissa Parson:I might just pick up baklava. You never know.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, that's nice. That's nice. Um, so I am eating something that I made for myself last week that holds up super, super well. When I was like, prepping for my colonoscopy, and had to have like, I could have like, very ripe bananas or like applesauce. I mean, I don't I can't stand applesauce. The worst thing? Oh, yeah, it's so gross. It's so totally gross. But, um, what I did and I do love because it's such a nice spread on top of like a piece of toast or bagel or something like that is I roasted some peeled pears, roasted pears and I roasted bananas together. And they're really nice, they are. This is one of my favorite things that I've done before. It's like a good little snack and like a nice little appetizer kind of thing. Or like ordered and roasted that altogether, blended it up and the food processor until it's just a real nice sort of smooth, smoothable, spread, spread, smooth, spreadable, spread,
Larissa Parson:spread, smooth spread.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That doesn't sound right. And that's like clearly really redundant. So I had that I'm gonna have that I had some last week I made you know, it just makes like a really nice amount. It's not. It's like a baby food kind of like texture. But it's not a purée, like it doesn't feel like you're eating baby food. Yeah, it's really nice. So I'm going to have that. Nice.
Larissa Parson:That sounds delicious. Good with brie, by the way.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, now we're getting fancy. Yeah, it wasn't cheese.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I mean, cheese makes so many things better. Everything is alright, so if you would like to support our work here on the podcast, head over to patreon.com/wondermine, where you'll have access to our monthly bonus episodes and our monthly book club.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And in the interim, follow us at Wonderminepodcast on Instagram. Thanks again. We're so delighted you've been listening.
