Wondermine
Wondermine
Season 3, Episode 4: Friendlove
Swiping a title from adrienne maree and Autumn Brown, we're talking about what goes into loving our friends, and why it's so important to do so.
Mentioned in this episode:
Praise by Sara Cate
Billy Collins https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/billy-collins
Mary Oliver https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/mary-oliver
Maggie Nelson https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/maggie-nelson
https://www.endoftheworldshow.org/
The Lazy Genius Way by Kendra Adachi
We also talked about Phoebe’s Snack Service and Vimala’s Curryblossom Café, for you Durham-area folks who love food.
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Three. I'm Larissa Parson, I'm a body liberationist, a writer and podcaster a mom to twins. And I am so glad that Ted Lasso is back on the air. Is that even what we call it? Like, is back to streaming? I feel like a dinosaur, Elizabeth. Like, oh my gosh, I don't often feel like wow, there's a generational problem here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Or certainly like, I look to you for these kinds of, like, pop culture in the know kind of terms and, and, and words, and so if you don't know that clearly, I am no, I am absolutely no help here.
Larissa Parson:I should ask my children!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Ask the kids! Ask the kids. And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a writer, reader, parent and eater, and I posted to my substack this week. More regularly, you can find me on Twitter and on Instagram at EMJwriting.
Larissa Parson:And if you are new here, Hello. We're the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the wow and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:But first, what are we reading? We start every episode with what we're reading and we end with what we're eating. Larissa, want to go first?
Larissa Parson:Okay, so this week, I am reading smutty smut smut. Okay. And it has been a while since I have read some smutty smut.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Smutty smut as opposed to like, just plain like lowercase smut without any kind of adjectives around it just smut, as is, almost?
Larissa Parson:Yes. Sometimes I'll read just like a romance novel with a little smut in it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay, no, this is smutty smut, smut.
Larissa Parson:This is smutty smut, smut.I am almost finished reading Praise by Sara Cate. And I'm mostly reading it because my friend who said no, you should read it tells me that the rest of the books are really good. Like you can see the author becoming a better author over the course of the series. That's me. Yeah. And it's got a great depiction of kind of BDSM and kink stuff, but the female main character is she's very young. She's 21. And so I get a little bit tired of that in my books. Like I really am, like, you're so young. But I'm really enjoying it nonetheless. What about you, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, so this is this is book one, right? Just to be clear, this is one in a series.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Praise.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay, gotcha. Okay. I am in a, as we know, I'm in a fiction rut, but I've got some coming. So I'm excited to start that. But in the meantime, I have been sharing some poetry from Kate Baer's new book, "And Yet," in my Instagram story, and I've mentioned it in my substack piece as well. Gosh, it is just beautiful. It's fiery, but also pretty commonplace. It's poems about mothering, what it means to be a woman. Poems about small joys. So all of us little p pleasures folks will appreciate that. Huge heartaches. Yes, exactly. Baer is a poet for folks who don't like or don't get poetry. So like, if you're that person who's like, I could never read poetry or that feels really inaccessible to me, you will like her, you will like her. If you are a Billy Collins fan, which I am. You will like her if you're a Mary Oliver fan, which I also am, and of course, like a Maggie Nelson. So poetry is where I'm at right now.
Larissa Parson:Nice. That's awesome. Um, for poetry folks. You know, I'm a back and forth poetry person. Yes. And, like, I like poetry, and I loved teaching poetry. But sometimes I'm like, not today.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, it's kind of a funny thing to get into because you read one or two, and then you're like, Okay, and that's done now. I put it down and I'm done. You don't read through a book of poetry, for example. So I think it's nice for small bites, too.
Larissa Parson:Yes, I agree. I agree. It's nice. It's nice to kind of have around in your house so you can pick it up and look. Anyway. Alright, so moving on. Today, we have an entire episode devoted to the idea of friendlove. That's all one word, friends. In case you missed December's bonus episode for patrons, we'll do a little bit of a recap. So the idea of friendlove comes from an episode from the brown sisters' podcast,'how to survive the end of the world'. And here's a quote from the podcast that we really resonated with us. And I think this is adrienne, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's my recollection. Yes, I think.
Larissa Parson:Loving friendships provide us with a space to experience the joy of community in a relationship where we learn to process all our issues, to cope with differences and conflict while staying connected.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So while we explore friendlove a little bit in that bonus episode, we thought we really need to go a little bit further under that specific piece of our community umbrella for this season. So we're looking at ideas that we have not touched on yet. So that's kind of what we're going to be what we're going to be starting with here.
Larissa Parson:Right. So to do a little quick recap on kind of where we were, as we dive into this topic. You can think of yourself - y'all can't see me, I'm gesturing wildly - in the middle of the circle. And then there are several circles radiating out from you. And those circles contain different friends or different people. So we use friend as this like umbrella term for people in our lives who we know. The friend who knows plumbing and household stuff that you can call on, or the brunch or dinner out friends, a circle of people you call when things suck, the book club friends, my smut club friends, circle for the folks who call up when you're in their city, a circle for people who are your music buddies, or your knitting buddies, et cetera, et cetera.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So they are fun people. Oh, and or they can also be people who are available when things feel less than easy. For me, it makes me think that there's just no one person who
Larissa Parson:Yes, and I want to make clear that with these circles, it's not just that there are different circles for different people in your lives., but they also have varying levels. So your friendlove has varying levels of commitment, can be all of these things for us. connection, depth, and intensity. And the quality of this, really, these relationships depend a lot on circumstances, location, and even life stages. So, it's not Yeah, exactly. So just like your romantic partner, or partners just about like, my knitting buddies, who are my buddies from seventh grade for the rest of my life. They might be my knitting buddies for a little while. So what does that make you think of Elizabeth? can't possibly meet all of your needs, neither can your friends. But your whole community, all of those circles taken together probably can. I mean, assuming, of course, that you've done the work of figuring out what needs other people can meet and what needs you need to meet for yourself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, and that's the end of the sentence, but it feels like a really important piece to sort of seize on here. No one is going to meet all of our needs. No one can ever meet any of our needs, unless we have done some of the work on ourselves, figuring out how we need other people to show up for us, where we can meet other people and what we need to do for ourselves.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, exactly. And I think relates to this one thought that adrienne says that I wanted to pick up on, which is that, I never am alone. I'm always in a community that intimately knows and understands me, helps me understand myself. So that's going back to that whole, like, I need to know what I need and who I care for so deeply that it's a joyful responsibility with these people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm listening to you say this. And it's also like alone, like alone in the world. Not like she has never physically without other people, like alone in the world, like doing this doing this world together. But here, again, responsibility, I want to really want to talk about that a little bit. Because there's this is not just like all ears and like blue birds chirping in the background. So let's talk about that. Let's make sure that we're all on the same page, like what does that look like or mean to you, Larissa, this piece about responsibility?
Larissa Parson:So, responsibility. It means not just that my friends are there for me. They're all there when I have problems, and they help me solve them. It's that I'm also responsible for them. Back when we talked about right people in season one, one of the things we talked about is that it's a reciprocal relationship. It doesn't mean that we're all sitting there with ledger's going, Okay, well, Carrie texted me last time about getting together so it's my turn or they brought me dinner, so I need to take them dessert or dinner or whatever. You know, it's really that over time, there is a clear sense of reciprocity as we are able to provide it. So sometimes it looks like leaning a lot on your friends for support. And other times it looks like being the person who sets up the meal train. And I've been in that role in the last couple of years. I set up the meal train for my friend with cancer, and then she set up the meal train for me when I had surgery. It goes back and forth. And this brings me to another point, which is that part of that responsibility and how we engage with our responsibility is really seeing and acknowledging our friends for who they are just as they are. And I just want to add that that means that we make space and hold space for what we're actually able to do in terms of reciprocity. So it may not look like doing the exact same thing for somebody else. It may be that I do a lot more schlepping of a kid because I'm fine with driving, and my friend is not. And that's fine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. I like these a lot. These are really specific examples. It's like meal train, meal train. And or I'm the one who can do this piece of it, because this is the piece that I don't mind. And my friend does this piece, which really feels a little bit better suited towards her time or schedule or her needs or whatever. I feel like I'm asking a lot of questions here. What about engaging or how do we like to be seen? You know, so how do we show the people in our circles that we're there for them? So it's kind of a two-fold question. How do we like to be seen and engaged with? And or how do we show those people in those circles that we have that we are there for them? What does that look like, do we think? I mean, I think I've got some ideas but what do you think that looks like?
Larissa Parson:Well, I'm curious about your ideas now, Elizabeth,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I asked you first. So you get to go.
Larissa Parson:There are a bunch of ways that we do this. But one of the things that I have been finding helpful is being really direct with my right people, with my community, with my circles, about how I show up for them best, and how I like to be shown up for. So this goes back to that whole, like, knowing what you need and asking for it. Yeah, I am not going to be the person--despite the fact that like half of my closest friends are gift people--
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's bonkers.
Larissa Parson:It's completely bonkers to me, because that is not who I am. And you all know it. Right? All of you all know it. And I've been very clear, like, I love getting gifts, you are amazing. You're wonderful people, I swear to you, if I find something that speaks to me, about you, I will get it for you. But it's not my first love language. Yeah, I'll talk you up, I'll spend time with you, I'll hug you, you know, the, it's just not my strong suit to think about gifts. And what I found is really helpful in this is instead of being like the friend who doesn't say anything about that, and the sticks, and just going like, Oh, thanks for the gift, and then never, you know, doing anything later, is like being able to say, I would love to show up for you in a way that works for you. But giving gifts is really hard for me. So I want you to know that I appreciate you. And please let me know how I can show up for you in a way that works for both of us. And that feels fair to both of us. And that leaves people free to meet the need to like, get a present somewhere else. Or to say, hey, we'd really like it if we could do this thing together. Or even for me to say proactively, like, Hey, I would love to spend some time together just with you. Because I appreciate you so much! Like, Elizabeth, we still have to go do that walk to Luna.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And that's so funny, because I was literally just thinking of that, right? Like, it's not like...I do love to gifts. Gifts is my number one for sure. It's like the way to my heart. Absolutely. But that's not like your thing. You know, when I think about you, I think about things like words of affirmation. And I also think about acts of service. I don't know how...
Larissa Parson:I'm totally an acts of service person.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We feel like those are two of those. Yeah, and so it's like, we're, where's the middle that will work for both of us. We both love spending time together doing something and we are those people for the other one too, who like really can go like we travel well together, we can really go and do things well together. We both like to eat, you know, so like these are things that we can kind of do together and we like fancy coffees, like fancy coffee, you know, like all of these. So those things are like so it's it's kind of like it's a gift, but it's a different sort of gift, but it's a gift. I think we can think about it. Yeah, exactly. We can think about it too, in different ways.
Larissa Parson:Yes, absolutely. So yeah, being able to reframe those things for ourselves and being able to talk about them with our, with our friends with our right people to say, hey, I want to make sure that you see my love for you, I want to make sure that you're receiving it in a way that you can receive it. And I want to make sure that, that your
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. essential, that your essentiality-- that's not a word! to my life is really clear. Yeah. And it should be.
Larissa Parson:And I'll just throw one more concrete example. So I have a group chat that does a monthly thing, we just started doing this thing called witches aggressively helping witches. Witches, if you're listening, we get Biscuitville, and then we descend on someone's house. And then we do, it's an act of service, right? It's we do a thing to help somebody with a concrete problem that is too big for them to handle either alone or with their partner or with kids around or whatever. And so that's part of how we're showing our responsibility for each other, and our love for each other. And we're meeting needs that were not going... that were not getting met before. And we get to spend time together and we get to enjoy food together, which is always a great way to like cement community, because we get to talk and catch up then. And it's a lot easier for us to as a group, who have a lot of young kids at home, to say, I'm gonna go help somebody with something, than it is to go to brunch. And now maybe that's a whole other podcast topic about why is it easier to help people than go to brunch.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, like, I'm that's.... I think you've mentioned this. I don't know if it had that same, like, cool name. But I feel like you've mentioned this to me before. And I love it. And I'm fascinated with this piece, which I do feel like, maybe that's, maybe that is the next bonus episode. Like, why is it? Why is that easier? Right? I don't want to I don't want to sidetrack us here. But that's super interesting to me that that's still kind of like, it's it's interesting to me that that is still interesting to me.
Larissa Parson:Capitalism is the answer. Right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's all. Yeah. The and. Yeah, right. Yeah, I'm sure that's it. I'm sure. That's it exactly. In a nutshell. Um, what are we? Okay, so showing? Yeah, I am generally someone who is like a checker in or have people you know, like to send the random text. That is like, how's it going, especially when it's someone who I don't generally see very often because they do have small children, they have a big job, they have a inverse schedule than mine, or, you know, whatever. I'm also, I also like to tell people that and I love it when people tell me this too. And you're obviously you're one of those people. But I love it when people are like, you don't have to get back to me anytime soon. You know, like I I texted someone a really long time ago. And she, and she had texted me back. And then I didn't respond to for like a day and a half. She's like, I don't know, if you forgot my text. And she's someone who lives in a different, different area also doesn't have children probably travel, like lots of different things that I was like, Oh, I did. But I, yeah, I was at work for a full day, could not respond, dealing with a child, doing this, then I had a group, you know, like, there was so much. So I try to also make that clear to my people, that you can text me anytime. And you can also take a very long time to text back or, and or message back or whatever. And that is, there's things that I probably do hold a grudge. Like, right. But that is absolutely not one of them. Right? Like I'm not bothered I there's like three people who are sort of hanging out there from like, January, like, I'd love to get together and like you phoned me back when you can do it. And we will see if we can make it happen. Like I love to give people that space. Yeah. So that's kind of one of the ways that I try to show up for people and kind of gift them that.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I love that. I just had two people in the last two days who texted me with like a hey, that walk we rescheduled two months ago. Can we do that? Yeah. You know, like, it happens, it just takes... as long as you're open to the fact that it takes time it's fine. Also, all of my people know that my phone is on silent. So they can text me literally anytime, day or night. And it will, you know, like I'll get back to them when I get back to them. And that's great. Yeah, yeah, that was great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, I think I want to just to sort of pause this for a second. And just to kind of get really clear that we're talking about here a subset of our community, we're talking about right people, right, so like, we're talking about like, when we think about your group, right, witches helping witches, witches aggressively helping witches. I really want to make a wow, like something like really like WAHW, yeah, exactly what like hands with the air or like a broomstick logo or something like I really want to like just get right in there. That sticker. Yeah, you should make a sticker on the back of your car. There's only like, whatever five of you will still be like waving. I think it's feels... because that's not that's not sustainable for an entire community. Right. That's sustainable for your peeps that you got the thing going on with and that's it, you know, so communities are huge. We cannot show up this way, aggressively helping our community of other witches, any, like all the time, we just don't have capacity for that. That's impossible. So when we think about how we show up for people, and how we how we show people that we are there for them, we're really talking about right people, we're not talking about our entire community, like our church folk, unless they are also one of your right people.
Larissa Parson:Yes, yes, not. Not everyone gets the aggressive witch treatment. And that's fine. That is actually important. Because how can we aggressively help other people? If we are too busy aggressively helping too many people?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We cannot. Also not everyone is a witch. So then everyone gets to be a witch, and you're in your coven. So yeah, that's just not possible. So it's like, I think we need to ground us in reality, right? There's things that we can actually change and do. And this is not one of those things. We can't help everyone. We can't do this. We can't be this way, show up this way for every one.
Larissa Parson:No, no, we can't. And and then I think part of that, like the there's elements of discernment that goes into this, right, that sometimes things feel off, or we don't feel respected, we don't feel heard. We don't feel seen. And that's like, you know, what do we do then?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Well, I think it starts out with a little bit of where we began, the note that we kind of began on which is like, we have a responsibility to communicate that, right, we have a responsibility to communicate how we want to be heard, how we want to be respected. How we want people to show up for us, like no one is a mind reader. No. And so that is on us. I was thinking of this. I'm reading this, I don't know who recommended this to me, maybe and someone recommended this, like Lazy Genius book, just that was like, oh, that's kind of that's sort of catchy. I'm gonna see about that. And one of her things, she tells a story of like, she is somehow in charge of like a sister's birthday. And every year they do this, like shrimp cocktail thing for the sister and and somehow she does something where it's just like, oh my gosh, I forgot about the shrimp cocktail. Like it didn't happen. And the sisters like I actually don't like shrimp cocktail at all. Oh, my God, and the Lazy Genius woman cannot possibly it's like what, like this entire time. Like, you're like, we're all adults here. Like this has been going on for a while this shrimp cocktail thing. And she finally says, I don't like shrimp cocktail. And it's like, ooh, but what a downer, right? Like we and I think it was just it's like, of course, you and I've talked about this at length where it's, there's something that's part of a family that sort of like, I don't want to let people down or it's assumed that it's going to be okay. But I do think we need to start with just our truth and make sure we are communicating that because we cannot expect people to just guess or somehow know, even if they know us really well.
Larissa Parson:Right. And I think that that's been one of the the harder things to, for me personally, as an adult, to learn how to communicate and to learn how to figure out because we're not necessarily we don't necessarily get taught this growing up, depending on our you know, families of origin, communities of origin, etc. We often and, like, culturally, if you watch any, any show that has any romance in it whatsoever. Or really friendships even. Everybody expects everybody to be a mind reader. And they just, just aren't. We're not mind readers, we need to be communicated with in order to know what to do for other people and how to do things for other people. So yeah, I think that's super, super important. And part of what helps me know some of my people or my right people, is that I feel okay, communicating. Hey, you know, I actually don't really like peanut butter sandwiches. I love peanut butter sandwiches. I need a better example. But
Elizabeth M. Johnson:you do. Oh, I know what your Can I can I say an example for you? Because this took me a long time. And I still default to it. Chocolate.
Larissa Parson:Oh, yeah. Because I'm allergic to chocolate. Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So there it is. Right. But like, I feel like that sometimes, like, I don't know, it's a chocolate chip cookie, or it's like a you know, whatever. So like..
Larissa Parson:people are like, Hey, do you want to try this thing, and I'm like, no, do you want me to vomit on you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And you're like, everyone's like, No, and that's when the conversations from awkwardly ends. But I think this is the thing with our right people, right? When we don't feel respected, or we don't feel heard, when things feel off. Okay. Both of us are invested in the relationship, if they are your right people, there's the reciprocity that you just mentioned, there's an equal balance of power. So when you're more or less on the same, you know, footing with someone else, it's often easier to say something in my in my experience.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah, it's often easier to say something. Or even if it's not easier to say something, it's easier to preface with, I have to say a thing and I'm uncomfortable saying it. Ah, you know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, that's so great. Everyone, like, let's just say that again, because I think this is really Yeah, I love that. Let's say it again. And then I because I want to. I just thought of another example too, but say that again. Okay.
Larissa Parson:I think it's, I have to say a thing, and I am uncomfortable saying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So it's like you have to say the thing and you also acknowledge the feeling that you're having. Yeah. And so Kendra and her, this is the other piece of this. So Kendra and her family when something is like a miss or kind of off or awkward or something. She's like, I have a boiled shrimp thing. Oh, she, she caught I don't know. I don't know where they're from. She called it boiled shrimp. But what she was describing was a shrimp cocktail. So I so she says, I have a boiled shrimp. Right. But the thing is, it's actually a shrimp cocktail. Yeah, a little bit different. Or not. But so that feels really, it feels like I should multitask and write that down.
Larissa Parson:I can write it down for you. I'll lose a piece of paper though. Because you knew me listen.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Maybe write it on this something. Oh, yeah, that's dumb. I just wrote something. I can't even read it. So that's not gonna work. Well, that's have you.
Larissa Parson:It'll be in the transcript.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, yes. What minute? Are we at least to go back and pull that out? Okay. Um, like, tip, tip, practical tip. So all of this, I think we need to say and acknowledge here is work. Yeah. Okay. But if the relationship matters to us, and of course it does with our right people, they're our right people, then we need to say something.
Larissa Parson:Absolutely. And I, gosh, Elizabeth, and like, bonus episode, bonus episode, bonus episode. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We're all over it.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. I think that this is where it's important to talk about the work that is part of maintaining, those circles and those relationships. Think that's kind of like a work?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I'm sorry. Yes, it is. I'm still trying to write down that thing. Because I have no sense of what time it is. So whatever. I've screwed that up several times. I'm gonna start
Larissa Parson:I have to say a thing, I'm uncomfortable saying it (laughter), Elizabeth, it's your turn to talk.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Shrimp cocktail. Okay? work. What work? Right? We didn't, you're just sort of gave us this to Larissa, like, don't we all just make friends instantly. And everything feels just like a Kleenex commercial. Every moment is tender and special. And there's no hysteria or drama or drama, or trauma or drama for the rest of your life. Like it's just so sweet. And like sepia toned. You know?
Larissa Parson:Yeah, it's like that, you know, there's never never any waves in the waters of our friendships. No, that's not how it happens. shaking head. Ah, this is why love is an action verb. Oh, because it's about, like, we start out with making the effort to connect, and we keep having to do that! It doesn't just stop once we're connected, we keep having to make the effort. Even, this is gonna be a shock to some people. Because they like to resent this a lot. But even when it feels like we're always the one who reaches out, yeah, maybe that is your role in this relationship. Maybe you are the one who does it. And if it really bothers you, then maybe you need to have a conversation about it. Yeah. So even if you're the one who always reaches out, and by that same token, and this is this is the bonus episode, yeah, we're allowed to decide that some relationships are no longer meeting us where we need to be met. And that's okay. But that's work. It requires work to maintain, and work to kind of go, Oh, hey, maybe this is too much work. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I think just playing off of that, and in teasing it out a little bit more. If we are the one in the relationship, who's always needing who's always reaching out, we feel like we're always the one who has to reach out otherwise it doesn't happen, then this is a great opportunity for us to say something right. So this is again, it's a right person is a great opportunity for us for them to say something, and it could it for you to say something and it could kind of boil down to oh, I don't want to bother you because I'm only back at my phone late at night. So I don't ever do XY and Z or I don't ever and then it's like, oh, it's no bother my phone's always on silent or whatever that thing is. Yeah. So yeah. So I think this is this is this is this is like this is also an this is an opportunity. Because sometimes there's a piece with our right people where there's a misunderstanding or miscommunication. And if it continues, then someone is not feeling great if it's continuous and someone's not feeling great that someone's not feeling great needs to do something needs to, needs to take some sort of action.
Larissa Parson:Yes, yes, exactly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So just an aside to pick up on, where you, so we'll, let's talk, we'll talk about that in a future episode. That idea of relationships that are no longer meeting us where we need to be, or no longer serving us in a way that feels safe, healthy, important kind of thing.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah. Um, let me think so finding people to be friends with is work, showing up to support them as work, taking the time to figure out by talking to them and asking them, not just like mind reading, learning how your right people want to be seen and heard is work. Is that have we covered all the work? Also figuring out when it doesn't work is work. Figuring out how to speak up when it doesn't work is work, that it took a lot of work.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I don't, I can't think of anything else off the top of my head that feels like that covers a lot. Yeah, is now a good time to ask what's where there's not work.
Larissa Parson:Like, here's where it's unruffled. Here's where it's easy. And it's like a Kleenex commercial. So once we have put in the hours, days, months, even years of establishing a real connection, there are lots of things that are easy. One of my friends is my friend because our kids get along. Except our kids don't get along half the time. What's easy is that we know this happens in phases, we know that this happens over and over again. So then we are just like, well, we're not missing out on our friend time, just because our kids won't hang out together. Let's make some dates, just the two of us to hang out. And so we make intentional plans. They don't have to be super formal. But it's kind of like, Hey, do you have some time on Sunday? Can I put you on my calendar? Super, super, super simple. What else is there, there's a deep ease in being known. Like, same friend, we spent a Friday night, just walking around at Southpoint. We didn't have to make big plans because we just wanted to hang out with each other. And we didn't want to be inside. We both wanted to be outside walking around. So we just went to the mall. And I was one of the best friend dates ever. Because it was just like, we had things to look at and talk about. And we had lots of stuff to catch up on. We had you know, some herbal tea from Starbucks. It's just being known. And knowing that that is a fine way to show up. I don't need you to come over to my perfectly tidy house. It's okay, if you come in, I'm unloading the dishwasher or picking up folding laundry, whatever. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So one thing I want to just pick up on there is that is you're, you're, you're friends, because your kids are friends, except when they're not. And you know that this is a pattern. And obviously you can only know this is a pattern after spending years together. Right? Like, right, like, there's the time I know you said that. But I also want to just like draw that out a little bit more. So I think that's like, wow, yeah, there's time going on. And so you would notice that, because you've had that you've invested that, that that that time upfront so you can notice the patterns?
Larissa Parson:Wait, can we just can we say that again? Elizabeth, can we just like I just want to say Louder, louder, louder, over and over again, it takes time. It takes time. It takes time, so much time, so much time,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:lots of time. But we're also in the easy part. You can also fast forward to this section if you don't want to hear about the work and see how that works out for you. Because Keep us posted. So what you're talking about here, that little bit about having someone come over and you're unloading the dishwasher and just like casual everyday simple, you know, there's I love this ease and simply being known. Right, you know, the of not needing to explain or justify, you know, we often and I just did this with you last night and I was like thinking about this this morning. We often undercount our needs, even with our right people. Yeah, right. So I'm like calling you and I'm like, Okay, can we pivot from this plan that we have to do the walk? I haven't eaten, but I basically will be okay. And you're like, I have to also use the restroom. And so let's do this plan. I was like, okay, good. Like and I, I don't, there's there's other, I definitely would say it with like, some folks like I have not eaten, but others I would honestly, I would plow forward to be perfectly transparent here and kind of like, show me in all of my like, you know, real like nitty gritty here, I would be, I would not have been that frank with other people. Because it's for me, it's not like body stuff that I'm gonna, like, I'm not talking about, I'm not uncomfortable telling you that I'm hungry. It's more of like, I don't want to inconvenience you further. I don't want to make the plan more complicated. I want to stick to what I said and this. I'm going to say this and then I'm gonna just going to stop it right there because I can go into this. I don't. One of my biggest biggest hang ups is I don't want to show up as someone who looks flaky, like I have it all together. This is one of my biggest Achilles heels that I've talked about so many different times. But if I have to change the plan, and now I have to eat something, even if I'm eating and walking, like, that doesn't bother me, you know, I, I possibly look like, you know, so it's this. It's just something that we're just, you know, there's ease and being yourself and just being like, Oh, this is it.
Larissa Parson:Whatever. Yeah. Yeah, so interesting. Um, is that a thing that comes from spending time in California? I wonder? Which piece the flaky?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Not for me. I don't have time in California.
Larissa Parson:I think that's true. That's true. I'm like that. Like, it's so interesting, because I feel I agree with you. And I tend to also not want to seem flaky. And yeah, my entire nature is very flaky. And I do think I think that, you know, there is for me, I've always had to be pretty direct with folks about this kind of stuff. Because sometimes my body does not work. And that. And that's always been the case, for as long as I've been an adult. So sometimes I've had to say, I can't do a thing, my plans have to change, I have a need another 10 minutes, I need another whatever. And so in some ways, I don't worry so much about coming off as flaky. I do, do I do hit a bunch of internalized ableism? Around, like, why can't I make plans for nine o'clock in the morning? Or why can't I? You know, do these things that I just literally cannot do comfortably or or why is it so uncomfortable going on this walk right now? You know, like? Yeah, yeah, it is really what is useful is being able to know that I have people in my life where I can just be really clear and direct and not feel like that's me coming off as flaky or anything else. Any other negative words that you associate with that? Yeah. So to get back to the ease? Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And I think there's a piece about like being seen as less than perfect, which of course I am, right. And we all are, but with folks other than our right people and right relationships, we still we worry about, we're seeing we've created again, I don't want to over I don't want to repeat myself too much. But like I've created work for people, if I have to do XY and Z, and I'm screwing things up somehow, so that that's, and yeah, I don't. Yeah. Let me just stop. Let me just stop, you have to say, Oh, no talk and say, like, oh, you go.
Larissa Parson:I mean, I think maybe the point that we're trying to get at here is that with our right people, it's easier for us to kind of hold on to the two thoughts. That I can own these are things that I want to be better at. And these are things that I am not good at. And, and that like I'm not a bad person, because there are things I want to be better at. Does that make sense? Yeah. We talked about this last night a bit about, about feeling bad. And, and so no, for example, to make it concrete, I'm not a terrible person, just because I have a terrible sense of time. And like, I'm never, I'm either early or late. I'm almost never right on time to anything. And I'm, but I'm a person, but I can be early because I set up multiple ways of making up for my own time blindness. Like, I just, I, it's just how it is. And that means I don't end up missing things or being rude. But my right people also know never to make plans for me at an exact moment when I need to be somewhere getting somebody out of the rain. You know, like, we know this, and it doesn't become a she's always late, so I hate her situation. Because we figure out ways that works for all of us.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that brings us to there's ease sometimes in setting a boundary, right? So I think sometimes it is easier to say out loud, what doesn't work for you, when you feel strongly about the relationship, we both have a stake in it. When we don't feel like someone is just like gonna go strict or check out on us or leave us or or use that information against us somehow. Or you don't feel safe, safe enough to share your feelings. You know, like, I think this is we even talked about, like a month or so ago when we're like, this is a piece that's missing from the boundary conversation. And certainly a piece that I don't think I've included in the boundary conversation. Maybe if I have it's not been strong enough in my mind, but it's that you know, when we set a boundary it needs to be have a stake in the relationship. Right. And those are totally your right people. Those are totally right people.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Yeah, um, when we sit I'm going to say that again, when we set a boundary, it has to be with people who have a stake in the relationship and When we set a boundary, it makes things so much easier because then we have clarity. We don't have to wonder we don't have to think about it so much like, it's, it's not a there's not so many questions running around in our minds about it. And then maybe this is, you know, Elizabeth, I feel like maybe this is like a little bit of me ruminating on anxious attachment kinds of ways of relating to people, but but I think that the boundaries are a great way to ease that kind of anxiety and to and to reassure people who are avoidant that, you know, it's okay to share your feelings here, because we have this boundary in place about whatever.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, yeah, that makes that makes really good sense to me. Um, so I think the other thing with the ease is that it really matters. Why are we talking about this? There's hard work in setting up maintaining, investing in a relationship and ease matters. And the relationships matter, because life is really hard. Yeah, life is really hard. It's hard for some of us more than others of us for sure. I'm saying that as you know, acknowledging my privilege right here it my life is hard in different ways. than someone who has less privilege, less access, less wealth, less, you know, all of these pieces. Life is hard work. It's hard fighting a capitalist patriarchal white supremacy, that pushes diet, culture and consumption simultaneously, like consume but also restrict consumption. That's really hard. That is really hard. So we do need ease. We need more pockets of ease. And our right people are are where we can get some of those sweet soft places to land.
Larissa Parson:Yes, and that's why that's why we do that's why we do the work is that we need these sweet soft places to land. Ease ah, that when you when you when you said all of that, I was like, right. My right people. I live this is like, this is one of the things I'm most grateful for in life is that I live surrounded by my right people so much of the time. Yeah. But when I stepped outside of those circles, I am always blown away by how powerful the forces of diet culture, patriarchy, racism, consumerism, like all of this shit. Like, it blows my mind when I step away from the circles and look at the things that people just say casually. Yeah, about other people's bodies. In this world
Elizabeth M. Johnson:All day long.
Larissa Parson:All day long.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:In a high end, women's clothing boutique all fucking day long. All day long. The reason I only do it two days a week. I love what I do. And it is very hard to hear women denigrate their bodies on a regular basis. Multiple hours a day.
Larissa Parson:hours. hours. Yeah, hours.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Seven hours. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, that's absolutely, absolutely.
Larissa Parson:So in the spirit of...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wrap us up, lady!
Larissa Parson:...embracing having a body and all the wonderful things that it can do. What are we eating this week? Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh my gosh. That's like a that's like a Michael Hobbes and Aubrey Gordon segue, it's so strong. Um, yeah. What are we eating? What am I eating? Oh, I know what I'm eating, which is really lovely. I'm like, Snack Service
Larissa Parson:Yeah, you uh, hi. I'm also not making any food has been on a like a hit list with me in the past couple of weeks. So I ordered some sweet potato, mac and cheese, which we did not have last night because of the train debacle. And I have plans. Oh my gosh, and I'm eating something else. I'm going to have plans. I have plans with my friend Brittany. And we're gonna go to Vimala's, I think. I'm super excited. I haven't been there in a really long time. I know. I know. So I've got donut muffins. I've got Vimala's, and I've got some sweet potato mac and cheese happening this weekend. So some nice combos with things that I'm actually not making any of. So yay. Yay, me. anytime soon. Okay, I'm gonna make bacon for breakfast tomorrow. I'm having burgers for dinner tonight.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, did you have burgers a couple nights ago or what? Wednesday or what exactly like?
Larissa Parson:I usually do Wednesday burgers
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wednesday burgers. I know it doesn't. Everyone knows this schedule. This could be like a quiz for your right people. Do you know which night I do burgers. They will all get it I bet. But it might be interesting, though. Some of them will like immediatly know, but I bet non food people are not going to, not going to be super invested in it. Like I remember that because that's like part of it and also like, I eat so there's that.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, people who aren't into eating in the way that we are into eating like, I don't know anybody who doesn't appreciate food because those are not my right people. But But I but I don't know people, But there are lots of my friends, my close friends even who are not into food the way that I am. To food as an experience. Yes, yeah. Yeah, I don't I'm not sure where I'm getting burgers from tonight. Maybe only burger maybe five guys not sure. But it's going to be greasy and delicious.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Have you been to Queen burger? I went up Blackwell the other day and saw it there. And it's it's so it's associated with Kingfisher, or maybe I'm kind of confused on that one. I didn't know I meant to ask you last night when we talked about the burger thing.
Larissa Parson:No, but it's going on my list. Now. Blackwell. Easy to walk through. Easy to walk to right there. Over by the health department where I can go pick up some more free COVID tests. Ish.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It's right next to the ballpark. Yeah,
Larissa Parson:yes. So I can talk a little bit. You could nobody could see the the gesture I just made but the long way round.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Nobody can see that. Yes, you're right. Okay. But okay. That's it. Yeah. So great. Because the close us, keep closing us out because it's doing you're going great here.
Larissa Parson:well, if you'd like it to make it easier for us to buy things like sweet potato, mac and cheese and burgers. Yes. And you would like to support our work here on the podcast. Please write us a review wherever you listen to podcasts that helps people find us and find their wow and how of living a life of curiosity, community liberation and delicious food. On the food. I must be hungry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I know what you're hungry. We're recording this over lunch. So this is what happens sometimes. Yes. In the interim, follow us at Wondermine podcast on Instagram. Thanks again. We're so delighted you've been with us.
Larissa Parson:Thanks for listening everyone.
