Wondermine

Season 3, Episode 6: Big Community

• Larissa Parson & Elizabeth M. Johnson

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Larissa Parson:

Welcome to Wondermine season three. I'm Larissa Parson, I'm a queer black body liberationist, a writer and podcaster, a mom to twins and a chaos goblin or perhaps a chaos fairy depending on what has the most positive connotations for you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a writer, a reader, a parent and eater. And you can find me at EMJWriting on Instagram and Twitter. I also write a very occasional Substack called Ripe Time.

Larissa Parson:

And if you're new here, Hello, we're the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the "wow and the how" of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, Wondermine is the podcast for you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

If you would like to support the show, thank you, you can do that for as little as $5 a month by visiting patreon.com/wondermine and you get monthly bonus episodes, as well as our monthly book club.

Larissa Parson:

And speaking of books, let's start off with what we're reading. We start every episode with what we're reading and end with what we're eating. Elizabeth, do you want to go first?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I will! Somehow I find myself in another memoir. And I seem to be like on this, like, memoir tear which I'm not loving. It seems to be things that people just keep suggesting them and I just keep picking them up. This one is called The Parts That Burns. And her the author is Jeannine Ouellette. I put down after finally getting it from the library, and I was like number 85 in line for a really long time, I put down I'm Glad My Mom died by Jennette McCurdy because I really think we can, just, I can only take so many abusive moms at once. And itI just wasn't doing anything for me, it was totally fine. I think people who identify with her, like they're a fan of her, I think they'll really enjoy the book. But it was not necessarily something for me. The Part That Burns feels a little... it, there's also a lot less of like current culture stuff going on, which I you know me, I don't have it. I don't get any of those references. I'm like this, I think this is not the book for me. I also am reading Stay True by Hua Hsu, which is a new his memoir. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, and it's very male, and it's, I'm liking it, it's very male. And but there's a lot of like California kind of going on. That's interesting. So I'm liking both of the ones I'm reading, I would love to kind of be pulled away from them more towards something else more meaningful, not more meaningful, but more. I don't know something that's going to really kind of click click click for me. And these are these are good. I'm enjoying them. But there's no, I'm not feeling any magic.

Larissa Parson:

Am I remembering correctly that stay true is kind of a very Gen X memoir, too, is that right?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. I mean, he's like five or six years younger than me. I think it's your Gen X generation. Like so it's it's not me, but he, Yeah, I mean, he opens by talking a lot about, like, Nirvana. So people who liked that will really, I mean, there's nothing wrong with Smells Like Teen Spirit. Like, I'm a huge fan. It just again, the pop culturey stuff, unless it's INXS, then I'm really not there for it. So so yeah. Send me your recommendations that are not memoirs because I'm up to here with those.

Larissa Parson:

I, you know, because I can't, I can't stand memoirs most of the time. So I'm like, I want to go read stay true, because I know that it will resonate with me on a generational level. Like he's probably around exactly the same age and like, I think yes, yeah. And, and I just am like...(sigh) but it's a memoir. Anyway.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I'll tell you he has a beautiful voice. So I listened to an interview with him and Scott Simon at NPR. So maybe maybe yeah, it's not very long actually. So that's something going in favor another piece going in its favor. Okay. What about you? What are you reading?

Larissa Parson:

Um, I'm reading three books at once because apparently it is chaos goblin time in my reading life. See this what I'm talking about about goblin Elizabeth. Okay. Anyway, just like excessive, though. No, it's not bad. Um, so I'm diving back into Pleasure Activism because I haven't ever really read it all the way through and I even though I love adrienne maree brown's work. I, you know, I suffer from this tendency to stop reading nonfiction books halfway through them. And that's where I was. And so I'm trying to finish it. So far, like, I'm enjoying it. I love her voice. I love the things that she's bringing into it. And at the same time, like not, this doesn't feel revolutionary, most of it because I've covered a lot of this ground before, but it's good and it's worth, you know, reading again. For a lighter read, I am really enjoying a I think it's probably why a it's got some supernatural magical elements in it called This Poison Heart and it's by Kalynn Bayron. And it's good. It's... I love it because it's centering black folks. And, and there's like, you know, this the main character's parents are black lesbians. And she's been adopted into this family from this one black family living in Rhinebeck. And it's not about trauma and suffering. It's about the magical powers. So I love that.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, I love it, that's awesome.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah. And then I'm also, at the same time, when I need or want something that feels a little more kind of heavy and literary, I've been dipping into 1000 ships by Natalie Haynes, which is kind of a retelling of bits of the Trojan War, from women's perspectives, right. And it's kind of interesting, because there's a whole bunch of like, classical Greek references in This Poison Heart as well. So it's all kind of mishmash and like, Oh, finally a chance to use that master's degree.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Love those moments are so few and far between for me.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, that classics degree comes in real handy. Not that often.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yep. So wait, remind me this is not the same woman as the Circe. woman. I feel like I asked you. And I think you said no. Okay, so it's not the same.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Okay, well, let's dive in. Our theme this season is community. And each episode this season is building off of previous episodes. So last episode, we talked about how trauma impacts community, we talked about trauma, because how we've learned to cope with trauma or not to cope, as the case may be, affects how we show up in the world and with ourselves. And of course, that then ripples out into our community.

Larissa Parson:

Yes, and we want to remember that community is the huge group of people, you know, in person and online. That's social media friends, right people, right relationships, families, colleagues, professional connections, church connections, et cetera, or other places of worships connect, connections. This episode, we're going to zoom out and look at what we're calling big community, big community.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

So neighborhoods and places of worship, like mosques, or churches,

Larissa Parson:

schools and work,

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

right, chosen family and family of origin.

Larissa Parson:

And we're going to just highlight that we're gonna talk next episode about friendships, because that is more of a nuanced conversation. And friendships aren't quite as big in the same way, although they are often more robust. And they're not quite as big though, as communities like schools, neighborhoods, synagogues, etc.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Right? Right. So let's dive in and start with neighborhoods. Larissa, what can you tell me about neighborhoods you've lived in over the past few years.

Larissa Parson:

So I think it's kind of an interesting difference between where I lived when the pandemic started and where I live now. With that kind of a much more, so now I'm in a much more urban setting versus a more rural setting, I do a lot more walking instead of driving. And when I do drive, it's much shorter distances. And I can do more things, you know, per trip in the car. Because I can just hit a bunch of places really quickly. There's, you know, to think about, like, some more social structure things, there was a lot of mutual aid going on in the neighborhood I live in now during the pandemic and continues to be, whereas the neighborhood that I lived in before, nobody needed mutual aid, it wasn't a thing. And this neighborhood now has more bipoc. And I would say that, I don't know if I think I was the only black person I was definitely the only black person in that neighborhood. Before and, you know, also how long have people lived in, in the different neighborhoods, that neighborhood was only maybe 25 to 30 years old period. And I have neighbors who have lived here for 45 to 50 years. Yeah. And, and and this and this neighborhood has a much longer history and place in the history of Durham in general. So, so it's just you know, it's really, they're really different places. I don't have to hire a pet sitter because I have a neighbor who can take care of my cats if I go out of town. I have my kids can go like out the door to the park and up to the coop and go do stuff without my having to take them, really, and there's a you know, I have a neighbor who's basically like the neighborhood watch. If anything is going on, he knows about it. And he'll come and tell you, Hey, I saw that you had you know, that you were gone for three days. And I just wondered, you know, I was watching your house and making sure that nothing was, you know, out of out of the ordinary. Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. So, one thing I'm noticing that I'm hearing is like a much deeper connection to the neighborhood that you're in right now, for many reasons.

Larissa Parson:

Well, I've also, you know, I lived here before for many years. So I already have established relationships. And I think that's important to note that like, it's not like, I felt super at home in the neighborhood, the first six months I lived here, but but it was a lot easier to meet people and to develop those connections, for sure.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Well, the proximity piece is just such a stark difference, right? And I mean, I feel that in my neighborhood, too. So I'm in, like one of the exactly like you one of the older neighborhoods in Durham and Old North Durham, it's directly north of the city between, you know, the city center and Duke Park. And we had that exact same sort of like, neighbor, watch person, you know, my good friend Janet, who passed in the fall. And it's just, it's, it's a huge, we're just so much closer, like, I've never quite, I've never lived this close to anyone. I mean, before I lived here, I lived over like closer to Trinity Park, that what is that called Trinity something. It's those little neat. It's like that tiny little nook of a neighborhood that's next to Trinity Park. It's Trinity something. And now I'm blanking on what it is. Anyway, super close, the houses are also super close to each other. But I think they're even closer here and Old North Durham. So it's this piece of like, we all keep an eye out on each other, I grab the package when I know those folks are out of town, or they've already told me because that's we just text each other, right? Like we have those kinds of relationships. And it's very important, it's become really important to all of us, I think, you know, to know that your kid can run up the street and say hi to this kid or do something over there. Or I was looking for my daughter the other day. And I remember like 5 or 10 minutes earlier, she said she saw Catherine's doors open, and she was just gonna run down and see what she was up to this lady who lives at the street, no children, lots of cats and just walks right, you know, just saw the door open and walks, right in, so what's going on here? You know? So yeah,

Larissa Parson:

I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when we started talking about big community and talking about neighborhoods, I think one of the things that came to mind was that one of the reasons I love the neighborhood I'm in now is that I grew up in a similar neighborhood. So it feels very much like home to me. And I've pretty much, when it's available, have always sought out neighborhoods like this to live in. When I was in California, I also lived in a very similar kind of neighborhood. So I feel like there's maybe something to say about our, our, like, how our families of origin or where we, where we grew up, influence those feelings of community for us.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, I love that you had that and recognized it was something you wanted to replicate. And you're whether it's like conscious or unconscious, you know, in your adult life, because I like totally the opposite. I didn't have I didn't, yeah, no, no value whatsoever. In my neighborhood. It was simply a place where our house was we had no connection to our neighbors. Pretty...and this was not when I was in rural Connecticut. That's where I moved from more recently in 2008. This is in this is a suburb of Hartford. So like I'm in Cromwell, which is not I mean, it was a little rural at the time, but it's not. I mean, it's still like a little city, not a little city, but it's a, it's a town. It was a town where there were people around and we just didn't have that, I did not have that it was not something that I grew up with at all.

Larissa Parson:

So I find that so interesting, because like, and it's interesting that you've chosen to like do the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I, I have always felt really comfortable in cities. When I grew up, where I grew up on Capitol Hill, for those of you who don't know, people are like, Did you grew up in DC? Did you grew up in the suburbs? No, no, I grew up on the Hill, and everything was in walking distance. And if you couldn't walk to it, you could get on Metro or a bus. And if it was late at night, sometimes you'd take Metro and like, take a taxi home because like not because cuz the train in DC is not really built for getting you around the city. It's built for getting you in and out of the city. So like, I knew all of my neighbors growing up, it was very Sesame Street in that way, like everybody was out on the on the porch, or out in their yard. And any neighbor could tell you you were doing something wrong. If you were doing something wrong, you know. And, and so I've always tried to make a point to introduce myself to neighbors or to be involved in neighborhood associations and things like that, whatever, whatever's available to me. In Oakland, that meant that my kids got to hang out In like the next door neighbor's backyard and just sort of be friendly with folks who were living around our house, and it was really wonderful. And that's obviously the case here as well, at least with the neighbors who I know and who they've talked to. So it's great. Yeah. I love that. Oh, yeah, I had to add more. I wanted to add more to that,

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

say more to say here.

Larissa Parson:

So you were saying, so to get back to what you were saying before, Elizabeth, you're talking about values, right, like the value in the neighborhood that you were living in. And I think, when we talk like just to zoom out here a little bit, when we think about values, and how where we live influences who we are, and how we see the world, there is a real benefit to being able to know all your neighbors, including like, you know, when I was growing up, like the dealers down the street are also here in this neighborhood, like, who's up to what like, kind of knowing who's involved in things and being able to have a friendly relationship with folks, as opposed to always just like, there's some disturbance happening, I'm going to call the police, instead of first having a conversation with your neighbor about hey, do you think maybe you could do something a little bit different at this time of day when my kids are on the street? Or whatever? Right?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I mean, as the white person in this duo, right, like, I think I want to, what I want to do is sort of like bring bring a point and like this is a really, this is a really hard, hard pattern to get out of, right, we're in this white supremacist state. Police and military have like, have an unbelievable amount of power. Even if maybe, to them, it doesn't seem like they do have as much but they do have a lot of power, they are the ones that are the default intervener, or they are the ones who are the default bringer of order. Even when their skill set is not appropriate, or the need, the need is not appropriate for them to come and kind of address the issue that's sort of coming, that's coming up, you know, because if it is, it's like some sort of thing that's like, loud, you know, we've had this thing with from behind us, it's like loud noise sort of going on. And it's, it has been very hard. The addresses are very close together, just like ours, it's been hard to identify where the noise is coming from. And of course, it's 11 o'clock at night and trying to figure out which house it is can be tricky. But on the other hand, I'm definitely not gonna be picking up the phone and calling the police like, there's there's no emergency situation here. And that's, that's I mean, then we get into like, emergency versus just like regular calling. The not the, you know, the regular what's, what's out there line, the non emergency line? Yeah, you know, but the police are often this default response, especially for white folks, right? Because that's kind of in many ways, what we have sort of kind of come up with like, this is what we are supposed to be doing. Yeah,

Larissa Parson:

yes. And we have alternatives in Durham.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

We do. Yeah. And so I think this is this. I love this, because I've been doing kind of looking at this just a little bit, because I'm super enthralled with this model. And it feels like it's taken a really long time for something like this to get off the ground, which, you know, to be clear, I have absolutely had absolutely nothing to do with getting it off the ground. And it's happening in other cities. But, you know, we do have the HEART teams, you know what, it is a pilot program, right? If I didn't know what the what the acronym stood for, but it's holistic empathetic assistance, response teams. So doing things like responding to folks who are in a mental health crisis, you know, or someone who's drunk publicly, and that feels kind of like scary or maybe danger, possibly even dangerous to you, or your child harassed or whatever, um, someone having a psychotic episode, whatever, things that are things that are scary, but are not necessarily an immediate and present danger, where we absolutely need police with weapons to kind of come in, right, you know, and so, you know, residents can still call 911, like, this isn't one of these things, we have to figure out like, Who do we what do we do? Now, you can still call 911. But instead of automatically sending police, right, you know, the operators figuring out they're kind of like triaging it a little bit more, you know, saying like, what is exactly the situation? How are you in any danger kind of thing, and then dispatching the appropriate person? Is it a police officer who's close on hand, the beat cop who's around the corner? Or is it one of the HEART team pilots, you know, so I think it's a really good program. And I Yeah, so I think there are alternate responses, and we need to obviously have more of this happening.

Larissa Parson:

Exactly. Yeah. And it's a fantastic program. As my friend Ruby says, like, it'd be great if we had it city wide. It's like, I'm glad that we're piloting it. And let's get it city wide. There's actually a petition circulating right now this Yeah. And we can put a link in the show notes. I don't know if it will this will be coming out later, like too late for it, but we can still put a link in the show notes anyway. Yeah. Information about it because I do think that for folks who are listening who are local to us, this is right. It's happening right here right now. And for folks who are listening and are not you know, hanging out in Durham, North Carolina. You can see if something like this is happening in your neck of the woods.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Because it is, in some others, that is right. I think it's, I'm trying to think about whether there were other ones I was just looking at. But this is happening elsewhere. And right. And so to be clear, I think this is city limits only right now for these responders like they're not they're not Durham city wide. You know. So if you were in South Durham this I don't I'm pretty sure they they're not coming your interaction like it is just city limits. I didn't know there was a timeline on that on that.

Larissa Parson:

I don't know. I'm not sure. Okay. I signed up and I didn't check. Yeah,

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

we'll put it in the show notes. Also know that. And it's actually only for Durham people. So don't sign it if you're not a Durham resident, because yes, it does ask your address. And I think we'll put I'll put it in the story. So make a note to them. Because it is it's something that we tend to like to fully... So the petition is basically to city wide, but also to fully fund it. So it's 24/7.

Larissa Parson:

Yes, yes. Because we want that. We want alternatives to brute force policing, policing. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

So thinking of neighborhoods. And it's another. Yeah, somewhere. It's another book that I'm reading that actually I think is really it's not the CLICK CLICK of magic. But it's it's sort of like memoir-y. Rachael Aviv is talking. She's another writer for The New Yorker. And her book is unsettled mind the stories that make us and she's talking about a totally different neighborhood than she grew up in, in one of the stories that she's looking at. And it makes me think about rural versus city, you know, and what that means. So this woman grew up in like this incredible, something called the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, absolutely massive. And it's totally worth kind of like, I just want to just like, just share one little bit of the description, because I was like, it's huge. It's huge. And for those of us like me, who did not grow up in a city and who have not, I mean, we have apartment houses and complexes around here in Durham, but it's totally not the same thing. And they're nowhere near as big as some of these ones that have been there, like a big housing project, big housing project, right. So like, you know, the, when they were built, they were the largest public housing complex in the world. They're 28 identical concrete buildings wedged between railroad tracks, and to interstate highway covering 92 acres. On the south side of Chicago, housing 27,000 people. So like, when we think about like, neighborhood, and how many people you'd know, in your neighborhood or big, you know, big community here. Yeah, that would strike me that's like your own country, basically. Any it's not, but it is it kind of would, might feel that way. So it's just making me think about...Yeah, it's a whole world, right? It's making me think about that kind of made me think about like rural versus city.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, I mean, I think that growing up in a place with that much population density is really is different also from growing up in, like, in the places where, like, where I grew up, it was row houses. So it's a little more dense than it is here in Durham, or here in this part of Durham. But it's, but it's there's no way that it's as dense as, as a huge project. There were projects down the street, so like, there's certainly more population density where I grew up, then. Anyway, bah, blah, blah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Mind blowing to me, kind of like how big that is, and how fast that is. Because I've certainly never seen anything like that.

Larissa Parson:

Like, what's it like to have that many people all in one place all around you? Yeah. It's like living in New York. Yeah. And like, but a very, like, specific but a very specific part, a very specific part with a very specific and a very specific lack of certain services and right, like an excessive police presence, I would guess. And then also a lack of, like, a HEART program.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. And then you think about, like, where those locations are like, it makes me think of redlining. Right. So it's like railroad tracks and highway. Yeah. So that's a whole other piece that makes me think that's your right, like, police presence anyway, we could get talking about this all day. But we could we're on location. Let's talk

Larissa Parson:

So, so I think maybe like to a light hearted about rural. anecdote approach to this is that my kids have commented multiple times, when they come to my house, they're like, it's so easy to walk to things here. We can just go do things so much more easily. Yeah. And, and I think that this, again, let's go back to how the kind of place we grew up and influences how we interact, interact with larger systemic pieces or with a larger sense of community. So like, in a more rural location, you are, by default cut off more from other people. Yeah, so there's more of a sense of a lot of the time there's more of a sense of individualism, and I'm making gross, big generalizations here. I just want to make sure that that's really clear. But you can see this if you look at like, you know, voting maps of where, who voted for what places that are more rural tend to go with more of a Republican voting record, whereas denser, more densely populated places where we can see the effect of policy that favors a more, that's more democratic in nature, like, so policies where we're talking about, like, let's make sure that we're giving people subsidies for this, that the other thing, housing subsidies, etc. That is, when it's all stacked up on top of each other, we can see how those policies benefit that us. Whereas if we're all spread out by acres, then we don't necessarily see firsthand how that helps or why that's important. So I think I think that that's really important to look at, like I and I spent, like, I spent like 30 minutes nerding out about maps and looking at different maps and looking at the land versus population distribution, and who voted how in 2020. And, like, it's just, it's really fascinating stuff to dig into. But also, I think that one of the things that happens when you live in a more densely populated area, in addition to kind of seeing how policy can affect the people you live near, is that you just see more kinds of people, period, you see a lot more people, not all of whom share our beliefs or values. And this is something that we talked about, I think, in our first episode, maybe of the season, where we talked about how like community doesn't always include people who think just like us all the time, right. But and yet, we're able to support each other, and to engage in organizing, by being aware of the fact that there are different ways for people to get information these days. So. So for example, in my neighborhood, we've made a lot of effort to make sure that everybody gets invited to neighborhood meetings, which means not just posting them on the listserv all the time, but also handing out flyers when there are neighborhood events, making sure that that information gets into people's mailboxes. So it's not just the people who have access to the internet on a daily basis, right? Who gets to speak up and show up and do things. And so just, like, that kind of stuff, gives you this richer understanding that there are so many different ways to live and so many different kinds of people to live near and to be around. Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

So that like idea of like, just being able to see, you know, so many different kinds of people. Yeah, and live within like, a five to 10 minute walk of, you know,

Larissa Parson:

a lots of different things. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just all kind of homogenous, right? If you walk 10 minutes in one direction, I mean, truly, if you walk 10 minutes from my house, in any direction, you're going to run into some of Duke. But but if you walk 10 minutes in one direction, you're gonna you're gonna run into a different neighborhood, from what you know, from this neighborhood, and another neighborhood, and another neighborhood is different. And the and the makeup of those neighborhoods is different. Like the percentage I also nerd it out about percentage of population. Like, who's, who's there? Yeah, who's black? Who is Latine? Who's you know, who's living in the neighborhood? Who how many white people are living on that block? It's fascinating. Yep.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, I think there's just really a lot too. And I think that sometimes we just don't, it's one of these things where it does feel like we don't know what we don't know, you know. And when I think about when I moved from, because I was moving from really rural Connecticut from Litchfield County, and upstate Connecticut, kind of Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York border, and I could walk 10 minutes in any direction and would still be in the exact same basically place, like I would still be next to a farm somewhere, I would still be next to a vast plot of land with a farmhouse real far back, and probably a very long driveway. And that's it, you know, and seeing only basically only white folks, no, no, no universities or school, you know, like a cultural sort of center or anything like that around us. And it's just, there's a lot. There's, I mean, yeah, there's there's so many stark differences. And you just don't quite realize that until you were in the exact sort of opposite location.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, maybe this is a good opportunity to make a transition to talking about schools. Elizabeth. Yeah. Because I think those are places like, when we're talking about community, and we're talking about neighborhoods, schools often factor into our sense, again, to go back to like, how did we grow up? And how does that affect how we see the world? Right, what community means? So what were schools like for you as a child, and how is that different from your perception of schools today?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, I mean, it's, I think they were pretty both of my school experiences were pretty, I'd say similarly small. Right? I went to a small private day school where my mom taught my siblings and I went there. And that was it was a school that was started by Wesleyan professors and that area Uh, still basically, I mean, I don't know, Middletown tends to be pretty urban it is a more of the one of the more urban suburbs of Hartford. But it's, but the school, that's where I lived. But the school was in Middlefield, which is incredibly white, and more like more property and wealthier people and still very white. And so it was a pretty white school overall, there were a couple of like, Black families and a couple of I don't think there would be any Latino families. There were definitely maybe some maybe some biracial folks, but primarily white and very small and very small classes. And it was it was wonderful. In many ways. The teachers were incredible. And that was lovely, but it was absolutely like, I there's a great question that sometimes comes up on Twitter, probably on Instagram or something. It's like, well, how old were you when you had your first Black teacher? And I was like, yeah, that was grad school for me. That was grad school. I didn't I haven't had until grad school did I have and that was when I went to grad school late, right. So but and then my, I went to what all girls, a small all girl School, which was a boarding school in, in the Berkshires, in Massachusetts. And so there was absolutely a ton of internat, not a ton of international students, but maybe 15 to 20% of students were international is my guess, at the time. And they were from all over the country. I mean, all over the world. You know, so I absolutely saw folks who were girls who were from, you know, East Asia, or folks who are from mainland Taiwan, you know, so they're everywhere. But and then then girls from very urban areas, like girls who came from the Bronx, or whatever. So that's very, those are very different for me than what we specifically looked for, for my daughter. So I suppose that we live here, we live in a city. So I it was kind of a, I've been set off. And it was like a real act of faith to think about going to a public school, which is not only so huge, but we just not neither my husband had any point of reference for that. We didn't do that. So we did that for five years, and now are at a charter school, which was, which is you know, both are incredibly diverse. I mean, both are hands down, very, very diverse, much more diverse than my own experiences in school and much larger, like they're much bigger, and there's multiple, you know, like 4/3 grades, or whatever it is, you know, we didn't have anything like that. So they're very different. It's very different. Now, for me, it kind of being on the parents side, as opposed to the participants side, or the student side.

Larissa Parson:

That's so interesting. I figured out just listening to you speak. I'm like, Oh, now I know what we have in common in our backgrounds, because we're so different. But hold on, I'll tell you, I'll tell you about it.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

So keep us in suspense, Larissa.

Larissa Parson:

So I grew up going to big public schools in DC, for K through eight. And those were predominantly Black schools. My pre K teacher was Black. My kindergarten teacher was Black. My first grade teacher was Black Actually, I skipped kindergarten. But anyway, like, mostly I had, I don't think I had a white teacher until I was in like, sixth grade. So I'm very different. Right? Urban, very different experience. So many more choices. Yeah, and more people and more. Yeah, so many more people and, and, and reflected the, the population makeup of where I grew up, even though I mean, these are these were public schools on Capitol Hill. So there were white families in them, involved in them. But it was not like that was not the predominant culture at all, that I grew up with. But then I went to a private part boarding girls' school, high school. Yeah, that's where we have the common thread. Yes. And, and again, like you said, Elizabeth, so as part boarding so there were a lot of us who were day girls who drove in and you know, hung out a lot on campus.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

True. There were day students also at my school, and they were they were like from town, basically. And that was also very, that was another totally different population to sorry to interrupt. But yes, it's an important point your coming to?

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, I mean, I had friends who were boarding friends, but most of my friends ended up being day girls. And, and, you know, I was coming in from DC. A lot of my friends lived in McLean and, and the and like other Fairfax, Falls Church, stuff like that. But it was also whatever, 20% international students maybe maybe higher, I don't know, it was a lot. It was a lot and I was there during the when the first Gulf War happened. And I had this really distinct memory of sitting in one of the common rooms, watching the war on TV with a bunch of girls from the Middle East, you know, I like and that's their home. And having that kind of experience, too, really informed a lot of like how I think about the world. Yeah, but these are two really different environments. So that's, you know, that gives you just a big, very different sense of community. Yeah, the whole world is your community. And both, but both of these environments had a nominal focus on the idea of community, like, both places are like, we are about community, we are about connection. We're about doing things together. Yeah. That was overwhelmingly the message of every place that I went to school. Yep. At least until college. So yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, I mean, it was. So it was something that I've noticed here, and I don't, it's since my public school experience is pretty limited. And I do think this is in like to sort of give some context, I do think this is in part response to how much of a greater understanding we do have of how trauma affects children long term. But one of the things that public schools seem to try to do, especially here that I can see here in Durham, very limited sort of scope, again, is to create communities that are caring, and consistent and compassionate, right, like schools have social workers, even if they're only there part time. Schools have school counselors who go into rooms, and do you know, whatever counseling is called, you know, you know, and so this is part of the reason that I think this happens that I've come to understand is that, because kids sometimes are coming from places that don't feel safe. And so if we can create a space, if they have the ideas of can we create a space in school, that feels consistent, right, we have there in Durham, a couple of years before COVID, we had the idea of community schools, I think club Boulevard was a community school. So like, how can we meet more of the needs of our communities. And maybe that means having washer and dryer, so kids or families can kind of use those. So kids can have a different pair of clothes, the next day kind of thing? If something's not working in their home, you know, so I don't know. I mean, my, my experience with places of worship are pretty limited. But I wonder if places of worship have that similar idea for some people, maybe being a safe, solid sort of consistent place where they do feel like they're accepted and safe, if even if home is not? Horrible? I mean, it's question I definitely know people who for whom church was not safe. And that would be all of the survivors I've known who have been abused in the church spaces. So that's, they're out. But I do know, for some people church could, could be and and I have heard that from people who grew up in a church and sometimes a synagogue who have said, you know, this, this was a good, this was a place where I felt good. You know, for whatever reason, you want to do want to kind of speak to that a little bit, Larissa, or what? Made for you in there?

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, I mean, I think I think to hop back on schools very quickly, I think that that has certainly changed in the last 30 years. Because I would say when I was in school, my understanding that was not the case. There was no such I mean, I think there were teachers who were good at connecting with kids, but I don't, but it was not like there was this, let's make this a safe space. It was not that

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

we even have like systemic like, bullying is not like the kind of thing right? messaging in the schools, right, which we didn't we didn't have any of that

Larissa Parson:

We didn't grow up with that. Oh, yeah. No, no, growing up. I did not grow up with that. And, I mean, I still have memories of people being taken into the coat closet with a ruler, you know, like, Yeah, sure. It's not that far back. I do think it's interesting, because I, in my own personal history, I grew up across the street from the church that I attended as a child. Yeah. It was, again, a predominantly Black church. It was Anglican Episcopalian, so fair from so that's a fairly liberal liberal denomination, right? (Wow, all the words are working.)

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yes.

Larissa Parson:

And so in that sense, it was safe ish. But I didn't ever feel super at home. Mostly because I'm just not super at home in a lot of religious settings, because they don't tend to speak to me in a particular way. And that's an individual. Right, that's, that's a thing. But I do think that there is something like there are places of worship that do feel affirming to people as they are forming their identities. And I think that that can be a really wonderful thing, especially when your family of origin isn't necessarily the affirming place that you need, or want it to be. Yeah. So yeah, I think I think that is great. And I would say that, even though I didn't always feel like, like my school was the safe place or like, my church was a safe place. There are things that I picked up in those communities that I carry with me through my entire life, like singing in choirs, and so therefore loving to sing and having a deep repertoire of church music to sing to my kids or spirituals to sing to my kids when they were born. So like that, that the community influences us in many different ways. And it gives us a sense to have like, what feels like a safe community for you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, I love that. I love the idea that you remembered those songs that you learned and choir in church or at school was in charter school. Both? Yeah, both. And that you then sung those to your own baby. So I think so I was like, I remember what like, when my daughter was little, I was like, What am I singing? And I was singing the most depressing song. So I mean, you had nice like, Are they okay, I was just you sort of sound like that you have nice maybe

Larissa Parson:

tools. I think spirituals they're like hopeful and also depressing.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, well,

Larissa Parson:

there's this hope there's hope in them, though. That's the whole point of them is like, we're gonna get out of this.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Right? Right. Yes, yeah. Well, I mean, I so I guess I don't I don't necessarily have any place of worship history to share. I mean, I lived across the street from a seminary. You know, that's a whole other thing. But like, I feel like Miss Hall's was like, very much like a safe place to be when my home was not. And it was like super stable. You know, dinner was always at the same time, breakfast always happened here. You knew what your schedule was, you had to do this. Like it's very routine. Very soothing to a child who grows up in total chaos, and with too many kids and too few resources. Absolutely. About that.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that and I yeah, I think that's fantastic. Like, when we're talking about this as a space that feels safe, it's sometimes it's just like, feels routine enough? Yeah, it feels like there's, there are resources here for you.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

And probably that's similar for people who would attend some sort of religious program, right? Like, you know, the Sunday School is at this time, or you know, that it's, you know, whatever, maybe you went to Confession, or, you know, you went to Confession was at this time to this time, you know, so like, there's something to say routine helps us feel safe. So whether that is in school, or church or wherever.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel like I have more to say, but it's going to start drilling down into the more like individual relationships level in terms of making places like the way that like that feel safe is because of the people who are in them, in addition to the routines and the rituals, and what Yeah, is what gives us a sense of like predictability. Yeah, predictable world otherwise. I'm like, Oh, I really want to talk about the exceptions. But those are right people and right relationships. Yeah. So Yeah. And how our sense of belonging comes out of those. So let's like save that for next time.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that. Let's let's hold off on that till next week. Can we talk about family of origin, though? We start? Yes.

Larissa Parson:

Yes. I think you wanted to pause for a brief break, though, before we get into it. Okay, I love that. That's wonderful. Um, okay, so

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

let's pause. Let's do that. Let's pause for a brief break. We're very grateful every time you share Wondermine with friends, writing us a review will help others find their Wow. Will help others find their wow, and their how, and that's I mean, true. But I think what I'm trying to think of here is the the writing of review helps them find us on whatever our pot your podcast player is. So I think I've got I don't know, anyway, write a review. This is five stars, that basically helps move us up in the queue where when people are looking for podcasts that they need to listen to next, that would help us. So here's one that we love. "Wondermine is wonderful. Definitely a very thoughtful and well managed podcast, and I love the people doing it. Keep up the good work and help as many as you can". Oh, thank you Blue. I love that tweet. break over, jumping back in. So like I was saying before, when we talk about neighborhoods and schools and places of worship, so much of our experience with those things depends on our families of origin. Oh, right. Sorry. I'm like nodding yes, yes. Yes. Like they choose, it all comes down to what our families of origin value, or are able to do. Like, let's be clear that it's not always about your values may conflict with your means. So yeah, yeah, ready resources. But how does that show up in the kinds of communities we're exposed to as children, including the, like, the micro community within our own homes, like, that determines so much of everything else? And we're not in control of that at all? Yeah. And so this is, I mean, I don't even know where to get into really here with family of origin because it's so thick. And it's so dense and laden with so many with meaning, but also intent with also like intent gone wrong. All of these sort of complex pieces. I think that I think that one thing that we can just maybe keep in mind is when we think about family of origin, I think we do need to we can do it. It's for me, it's sometimes it's a yes. And yeah, yes. And my parents didn't have the resources. You know, I'll tell you about me. My parents didn't have the resources to do better. And they probably could have sourced out more resources than they did in order to do better and or, I can still be angry or upset by how things happened. Right. So we can still have have that experience, even if there's a, there's a piece where we're really acknowledging the reality of the situation, you know, we can it's sort of like this yes, they end up like we, we let people kind of get away with things. Well, that's always, that's just how she is, which is a lot of the thing that we say with a family member or the aunt who's unkind or something like that. And, and, and that may be true, right? That could be absolutely true. And it's okay for me to say, I don't want to be treated that way. You know, so I think there's a lot of me think about family of origin. For me, I go back to a lot of the "yes, ands", you know, I can still feel and I can still feel upset about this. And I could still feel like things were okay.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to remember. Because there's a real I'm gonna say the zeitgeist-y thing right now of just kind of cutting off your family of origin, because they did ya wrong. Yeah. And, and navigating, choosing to maintain some of those relationships and asking to be treated differently, like those kinds of things are like, it's, it's something that's top of mind right now. For me. Yeah. And I think that that is, I think what you said, like you, they could have maybe access to other or different resources or better resources, like, and that's not what happened.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Right.

Larissa Parson:

And here you are,

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

and they didn't. Yeah, yeah.

Larissa Parson:

And, and I think there's also something like what else? I feel like there's something else to say about how, how I saw, see you choosing to have a different community that you live in, from what you grew up with? And like, how does that how does our sense of connection, safety, stability, where, in the community where we grow up, how does that lead us to where we decide, if we have the resources to decide, where we live, as we're older, as we grow up? And as we as we're adults, and living our lives? I don't know, there's there's a complicated stuff in there that I'm thinking about, it's not all coming out? Clearly there.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

no, I think it's really complicated. And I think what we can sort of leave it with when we think about, you know, family of origin, is that, you know, it is, you know, when we think about community as the noodles, right, like, it's this, you know, there's so much going on here. So family of origin is one piece of it, you know, and they're the piece that was a primary influence on us from, you know, from birth to age 18. Or if you emancipated yourself maybe earlier,

Larissa Parson:

you know, or 25, if you're, if you live at home longer.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, or even longer. And so that is a huge voice in your head, that will be with you for a very long time. Even if you decide to cut people off, cut them off, or cut them out, or whatever you do, I mean, more power to you, I support whatever people feel like they need to do in order to, you know, be healthy, functional, contributing members of the biggest community, right, like all that, like the world community, you know, but so I think it's just, there's a lot, there's a lot, there's a lot here, and I just feel like I want to say it's one of the biggest pieces. And also, I think, one of the reasons why we need to get to places where we are really hearing from people who kind of want 100% champion us and we'll get into that a little bit. But also, this brings me to, this brings us hopefully, to a little bit of like, and maybe I'm gonna kind of flip this to you, Larissa around chosen family. Yeah. Right. Because I think that's a really powerful concept. I mean, it's not a new concept. But I mean, it feels like it's a really powerful concept as an alternative,

Larissa Parson:

right? Yes, yes. So you don't really have any control over who your family of origin is. You don't, you don't tell, you like you just don't...You got who you gots. And you don't have a lot of choice about that. But what we do have is a choice of about the family that we create as adults. And it's, chosen family is a relatively new, by new. I mean, like at the end of the last nine years. Yeah. Okay. I'm relatively new term. And, but those relationships have existed forever. These these kinds of these kinds of deep, intimate relationships that are not your family of origin and are that are not necessarily just romantic relationships. They include lots of different kinds of romance, lots of different kinds of relationships. It was, so I did a little research, like who coined the term. And what I found was Kath Weston coined it in a book she wrote in 1981. Families We Choose-- Lesbians, Gays, Kinship, so, and I, chosen family has been a term that has been bandied around in the queer community for a very long time. And it has just kind of like come out of the queer community into more mainstream use in the last, you know, 5 or 10 years I would say. So, it's the people with whom we, we have kinship level relationships, even though they're not our family of origin. And particularly, this idea of chosen family comes out of for those of us in the queer community, it came out of a need for a sense of family when our families of origin were rejecting us, right. So like, no place was safe, but these people are safe. These are our right people, our right relationships, these are people who provide us with that deep sense of kinship and show up for us and we show up for them. And, and I think that, you know, in terms of getting into a more mainstream use Mia Birdsong talks about it a lot in How We Show Up. And I think that's where it's kind of like coming into where people can see, like more people outside the queer community are using the term as well. And it's a really wonderful term. I think. This, like, I love being able to describe this kind of interdependent web of relationships among people that we know we can trust. Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I love that. I love. I mean, I feel like I've heard that here. More here. Since I've been here in the south. And I've been with people who were different than me, you know why when I would talk with women in support group, and they're talking about their auntie, who is not related to them, it's not their auntie, actually.

Larissa Parson:

Word auntie, like this multicultural, like so many different cultures have on these are like, not related to you at all. And?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yes, yes. And so I, that was kind of probably one of my first experiences with kind of like, getting a little bit of like, Who are these people who are chosen family of this person? Like, what are those groups look like? Yeah, it's, it's not necessary. I mean, I, it's not necessarily a term that I am doing much with, right, you know, or that I'm using, but I like, I do think that it's, you know, in Mia Birdsong's book, she does feel like, it is something that's a little bit more accessible to people like, perhaps outside the queer community where it started, which I love. You know, I'm not using it like, I don't, that doesn't. That's one of those things. It doesn't necessarily come up for me in conversation. I wouldn't say she's part of my chosen family. But I love that it's I love that's an option. I love it there.

Larissa Parson:

Yeah. Well, and I think that it's a it's a term that is descriptive, and often a lot like, you may not use it, but you may still have chosen family, if that makes sense. Right? Like I've got I joke a lot about one of my friends being my platonic life partner, because we take each other to colonoscopies. Like, yeah, we do those kinds of things for each other. And that's chosen family right there.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. Yeah, that's just lovely. Um, and it made me like, it's maybe interesting to have like, a side conversation about like, chosen family versus like, right people. Oh, like, and how would they what that overlap or intersection might look like? That's kind of it. Maybe that's something that we can talk about in our next episode on friendships.

Larissa Parson:

I wonder? Like, is there a difference? Really?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

I don't know. I don't know. I'm just thinking like when you said that I was thinking oh, well, that's like someone you're writing with. Like someone who is one of your right people, someone you're super super comfortable with. They probably know a lot of like your kind of your areas of vulnerability or some of your fears, you know, whatever. Anything else want to say about chosen family before we move on to work briefly?

Larissa Parson:

Now let's let's let it's been a while let's move on to work.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Annie Dillard, writer Annie Dillard wrote how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. And for many of us, a large portion of our days are spent at work, like at a full time job outside of our home is really what I'm kind of thinking here, Larissa, any guesses as to how many hours the average person will spend at work over lifetime? I'm actually thinking that this is the average American, so I'm just gonna go there. Like I don't feel like the Europeans aren't working like this. No one's working like the Americans. I mean, I also that sounds like really like supremacist it. But like, there's no this is negative, but I know it's super negative. Right. It's a super negative. But I also think that I wonder if like, I mean, we had, yeah, so anyway, some people who've moved on to some countries have wisely moved on to a four day workweek or working on that. We are not there. And how many hours do you think Americans

Larissa Parson:

10s and 10s? Of 1000s? Oh, years? Yes.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

90,000 hours?

Larissa Parson:

Many!

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

It's so many. I should have looked up in comparison, like how many hours we spent sleeping. I kind of forget that number. So you know, like, that's like a number that sometimes is bandied about, right. Yeah. 90,000 hours. What does that even make you think of like that? What comes to mind there?

Larissa Parson:

I immediately was like, oh, yeah, Malcolm Gladwell would make us think we'd be like super experts. We remember all

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

right, cool. Yeah, yes.

Larissa Parson:

And those 10,000 hours. That's a lot of freaking

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

A lot of time you A lot of time. Um, so time. it does feel important to sort of mention because obviously, this is true for you and I, this is, you know, going to be true for the people who work traditional nine to five outside the home. I don't, I don't some of my friends don't, some of my friends do. Some of my friends definitely work more than that. But it does kind of feel like it's a valid data point in terms of this 90,000 hours. For me, what this number tells me is it kind of underscores the fact that work can't not be a community, right? Because we are there a lot. So when like when we're talking about community, we look to the very end, if we kind of circle back to the very beginning of where we started, Larissa kind of gave us that definition of that huge group of people. And in that people in that group, were people like our colleagues or professional associations, right. So those people cannot not be an influence on us, because we are surrounded by them a lot. We spent a lot of time and hours in their company.

Larissa Parson:

Yes. I mean, and that's kind of like why people talk about things like their work spouse. Yeah, you have a whole life at work. That is, that is it's different community that a lot of your other people don't ever see. Don't participate in. Yeah. So it's important to acknowledge that as and that and to acknowledge Oh, that's also part of the lasagna. Yep. It's part of the noodles. It's yeah, yeah, it's in Yeah.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. So I think no one really needs to spend that much time talking about work. And we're really this is like, as much as we're gonna spend talking about it just basically to say that our community, our people at work, those professional associations, those colleagues, those LinkedIn connections, right, like, if you use that social media, those people cannot be an influence on us. That's right. So when we think about all of these groups, right, we've got chosen family, and we've got family of origin, we've got school communities and neighborhoods, you've got places of worship, we've got work. How does all of that affect our sense of humor? Like what are what can I don't want to say? What conclusions can we draw? But like, what's coming to your mind right now with some of our takeaways, as we kind of wrap up here? And neighborhoods, right, we talked a lot about neighborhoods. Like what what is what are some takeaways that we feel like we want to just sort of highlight or pull out? Or maybe a question we can ask people?

Larissa Parson:

I mean, I think I would ask people listening to think about, like, just pause, and think, Well, how did I get to be living where I'm living right now? And, and how does that influence or affect how I think about my role in the world? So you know, we're talking about the Wow, and the how, we're talking about living a life rooted in liberation? Yeah. How does where you live now reflect that value, if that's the value for you?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

And that's right. That's all about being curious. Right? Yeah. Like, that's just, you know, we talk about the Wow, and how living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation, right. So like, what is that? Like? Let's get curious about that. You know, I know that for me, I'll say that one of my biggest one of my, you know, people, like why did you move to the south, it's a huge move. And I said, definitely had some family, like I had a family of origin people in the area. I also wanted to live somewhere, frankly, that was brighter than the northwest corner of Connecticut. You know, most of the year, I wanted to live somewhere warmer, I wanted to be around different I finished a women's studies master's program, I absolutely wanted to be around people who were different than who looked different than me, who taught me different languages. And there was more of a cultural center than what I had with where I was.

Larissa Parson:

That is, I love that. I think, you know, for me, one of the things that surprised me about moving to the south, because I thought, I swore up and down, I would never move anything more southern anywhere more southern than DC. But what surprised me was the feeling of real empowerment that comes from living in a state where your vote actually counts. Where like empowerment, and also disenfranchisement at the same time. But like, there is real work to be done and real power and organizing here. That is not you know, it's easier to kind of be half assed about your shit. Oh, lots of swearing. In California, like, yeah, it's really easy to be complacent. And it's a lot harder to be complacent here. Yeah. And I think that that was one of the surprises for me about moving here.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Yeah. So maybe a question for people to muse over is where you're living representative of who you are and who you want to be? Hmm, yes. And maybe if we, if that feels like we're there like, Well, yeah, it isn't. But there's nothing I can do about it. We're here because of so and so's job or whatever, I don't see us moving or whatever the thing is, you know, maybe you can maybe there's a question to sort of be looking at when we think about this big community. How is that actually influencing your thoughts and decisions on a regular basis? Yeah, I'm going to just kind of get curious about like, which voices when you're like, when you hear the voice that sort of, like a should kind of voice or a voice that tells you something wants you to push something down, like where are the voices coming from whose voices are we sort of giving a little bit more airtime to? Let's close with what we're eating.

Larissa Parson:

Alright, I guess I'll go first. I was like, Oh, I got no idea what I'm eating. So I'll start with mystery food tonight. Tomorrow I am going to spend most of my day at the Hayti Film Festival. And so I will spend some of my day eating something probably fried and delicious. That is over near the Hayti Center. So I don't know what it's going to be. I'm hoping it's maybe some catfish or chicken.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Is that likely do you think there are a bunch of little shops right there?

Larissa Parson:

Oh, there's a bunch of little shops over there. Nice food shops and like I'm it'll be fried. It'll be southern. It'll be delicious. And it'll be very cool. What about you?

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Um, so what am I eating? I'm hoping that tomorrow husband I are heading to Manteo. I'm hoping that I'm going to eat some fish. Yeah, yeah, that's that's the plan to leave tomorrow morning on Saturday and be gone for like 24 hours. And well maybe a little bit more me like 36 and then have some local food there so I'm hoping for some fish, fried or otherwise and then maybe some really nice sort of like coffee on the way or pastry or something something delish. So that's kind of what I'm, what I'm going for.

Larissa Parson:

I hope I hope it's delicious and I hope you get to have it.

Elizabeth M. Johnson:

Me too.

Larissa Parson:

Thank you so much for being here. In between now and our next episode. Please follow us on Instagram at Wondermine podcast and we are just so delighted that you've been listening.

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