Wondermine
Wondermine
Season 3, Episode 7: Plenty and Enough
On our final episode of Season 3, Elizabeth and Larissa discuss the ideas of plenty and enough--how do we know we've had enough? What does plenty feel like?
Mentioned on this episode:
Ripe Time Substack
Thistlefoot by Gennarose Nethercott
Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingslover
https://virginiasolesmith.substack.com/p/jeans-science-part-1
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson. I'm a body liberationist, a writer and podcaster, a mom to twins and I have the worst freaking allergies this spring that I've ever had in my life.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Solidarity sister. I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a writer, a reader, a parent and an eater. Find my occasional substack called Ripe Time over at substack. But more regular, you can find me at Instagram and Twitter at E M. J. Writing.
Larissa Parson:And if you're new here, hello. We're in the duo behind this feminist podcast that looks at the Wow! and the how of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something Wondermine is the podcast for you. And this is season three.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What are we reading? We start every single episode with what we're reading and we end with what we're eating. Larissa, do you want to go first?
Larissa Parson:Sure. So I am reading a book called'Thistlefoot'. I think I was reading it weeks ago, too. I've been working on it. It's a big, long book. I think we've talked about this before. Maybe, we talked about this for our bonus episode. I can't remember. Anyway, if you all have been listening, you may have heard of this book before. So that's what I'm working on. But I have like this stack of books queued up. There's like the new Louise Penny that came out last winter and I'm excited to read and there's a couple other books that I've been really looking forward to reading that are just queued up to go as soon as I finish this so I'm hoping to finish it this weekend, so I can just dive in and get my cozy murder mystery on.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Nice. I have a couple of books queued up also and I am trying a new habit of not putting every single book that I hear of on hold at the library which, backfires on me.
Larissa Parson:Because they all come in at the same time, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What the hell? They all come in at the same time.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, that's my problem. And then sometimes when you'll get the one like'Thistlefoot' came in, I was like, 'oh cool, book'. But it's really long. So, like then the other ones have been trickling in over the last week. And I'm like looking at how long I have before I have to return them all and like, I gotta read faster.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, that's exactly right. Because I had 'Demon Copperhead', Barbara Kingsolver's book come, which is so freakin long. Oh, but longer because I got it in large print. Oh, gee, it's fabulous. Anyway, it's done. But it is massive. And then I got finally 'Age of Vice', which is what I'm excited to mention today. So it's Deepti Kapoor, I believe is how I say her name. She is a writer who I believe lives in Europe right now. But she was worked as a journalist in India for many years. It is also a massive freaking book, my God. And you get right into it, which is like one of my very, very favorite ways to start. So I love a book that gets me right into the heat of the action, like I'm in the driver's seat, or I'm driving, or whatever, going somewhere, or I'm right in the middle of it. And so this is like one of these saga-like books, there's a massive family involved. And it's fascinating and wonderful. It's India in the early 2000s. And it's really great. There's not a piece that's frustrating me. So I was on a fiction sort of desert for a while. And this is got me out of the desert. So really loving it.
Larissa Parson:That's amazing. I love that when that happens, blah, blah, blah. I love it. When that happens.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I highly recommend highly. I'm about three quarters of the way through it, so I can say that - I mean, I highly recommend it from day one. But I still continue to be really enthralled with it.
Larissa Parson:I will add it to my to be read list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Do it. It's good stuff.
Larissa Parson:Awesome. So like I said earlier today we are closing actually season three. Yes. Wondermine. And we are closing out with an episode on the idea of plenty and enough. As you all know, this is our last season and this is our last episode. So this topic feels very apt. One of the questions that we asked each other a long time ago, Elizabeth, I feel like this was one of our earlier walks where we were maybe working on Season One ideas.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It was a long time ago. So probably like two-ish years is my guess.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. So we've been thinking about this for a long time. How do you know when you have plenty and how much is enough and we couldn't figure out where it fit in anywhere else until now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Until this very moment. Not that long. Okay, so we're gonna use plenty and enough sort of interchangeably to mean the same thing. One word may resonate with you over the other, so hold that word close. So if like you're a plenty person hold on to plenty. If enough resonates more with you hold on to that for the next 30-40 minutes while we talk about this.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I feel like one of those words will resonate more than the other I feel like for me enough is one of those but plenty has different connotations for me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So when I started thinking about this topic, I couldn't get away from how my childhood impacted my thinking about what enough looks like. And I'm wondering if that was similar for you, Larissa, or where did you go first when you thought about this plenty and enough idea?
Larissa Parson:So funny, because I think when we were talking about it, it was something completely different. But as I sat down to map this episode, what jumped into my mind immediately was a story that my dad likes to tell about my childhood. And I swear, I've heard the story about 700 times in my life.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So plenty
Larissa Parson:*laughing* plenty enough, actually, probably enough times
Elizabeth M. Johnson:probably enough.
Larissa Parson:And it goes kind of like this. One time, one of the neighborhood kids was walking past our basement window, you could like our basement at my mom's house looks out on this park. So people just walk past it all the time. And look inside we had it was like it was an unfinished basement. And it was one of the sector playroom. So it was full of toys and stuff. And and they said, Wow, it looks like a toy store in there. And I'm sure actually what he's aiming for when he tells the story. Like is it about how spoiled my brother and I were? How much my mom liked collecting toys for us, or gathering things like that, or how different my childhood was from his own upbringing, which did not involve a toy store in the basement. But that's the story that I think about when you mentioned plenty, plenty and enough like I had plenty of stuff growing up, did not lack for material safety, did not lack for food, even if sometimes it was kind of like, there's not a whole lot of abundance of different varieties of food. There's still plenty. There was no lack. Right. And when I think about that, though, and like, but that's really different from having a sense of being enough, or having enough emotional support. So, as an adult, I've been sitting with that question a lot. Yeah. Tell me about your childhood, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Well, that's a whole thing, isn't it? Right, like I didn't lack for material support or food like basic needs were met. But that's really different from having a sense of being enough or having enough. Being enough or having enough in the more emotional support sort of end of it. So in my home, there was plenty of dysfunction. So two young parents, married way too young. Too little support, not enough of anything. And that definitely included food, although I say that but I want to always qualify that no one was starving. We were not on food stamps. I wouldn't say there's food insecurity, even though there wouldn't have been a time that you would have viewed that wouldn't have been a phrase you would have used at that point. It's just the feeling of they're not quite being enough for all of us to feel content, or satiated or having like those like those needs met. So for me, that kind of led some scarcity mindset thinking around food, one offset of that, for sure. And definitely like I feel you on the emotional support piece, like being enough and having enough but I definitely food is one of those areas where I definitely struggle with plenty and enough.
Larissa Parson:That is so interesting. So, I'm just trying to make this a little concrete in my head. So like when you say that no one was starving, but there wasn't enough for you to feel content or satiated. That's kind of like there's no leftovers after dinner. You might run out like the thing that you like the most because your brother ate all of it or ate that last bite of it or whatever....
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That is exactly it. Yes. Yeah. Once there's once dinner's done, there's generally not leftovers from dinner. Yeah, there are there that if the thing was sometimes eaten by someone else in my family, and actually I would go on to do this thing where once I started bringing in my own little money, I would buy my little pint of Ben and Jerry's, and I'd put it in the freezer, and I would write Liz with a sticky or a Sharpie and be like, don't touch this. It is mine. So I don't do that anymore, happily, right. Happily, I do not do that any longer.
Larissa Parson:So what does that look like for you now? Like, how does that sense of scarcity around food show up now for you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I think it's sort of like two ways. I need to remind myself that there's more if I want it, or if I need it. There's more. I can get more. Mona's always makes the apple cider doughnuts even though funfact early on, they discontinued them for a little while, and then we're like what? And we were like one of those first apple cider doughnut people to kind of be very loud about this, and then they brought them back. So every day there apple cider, doughnuts at Mona's unless they run out, but they'll have more tomorrow. But also, like to fasting and diet culture type stuff, like if I want one now, that's totally fine. Okay, it's totally fine. It's okay. And I can have another one tomorrow, if I want. If I don't want one, that's fine. I can access that at another time. Like, I can do that. I have resources, like I have gas in my car to drive to Mona's, or whatever the thing is. We have the extra $5, let's say, to get a couple of donuts. So I have that I have those things there for me. So food is one place the plenty and enough sort of scarcity mindset flip flop goes with me. I wonder about you. What about you with plenty and enough - what feels like a little piece that you struggle with?
Larissa Parson:I want to go back to your diet culture comment for just a second because I wanna really highlight that because I feel like this is really, really, really important to folks who are newer to unraveling diet culture in their
lives. Disclaimer:I'm not a dietitian, and I'm also not a specialist in disordered eating. But that question of plenty enough comes up so often, when we have disordered eating patterns, because like, for me, I will say, in my own food history, there was a time of deep scarcity, where I could not afford a lot of food. And that led to an absolute pattern of disordered eating. And so I would always overeat to compensate every time that I was like visiting family and could actually have enough food. I would have more than enough food. And so like, this shows up, everywhere, and it's really hard to unravel it. So just like to highlight that, when we get to the point of really divesting from diet culture, and being able to say, I can have that again tomorrow, or I can have it today if I want to, and I can have it again tomorrow if I need to or want to. Being able to get to that place of food is so so healthy and important. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I would say, also just sort of to be clear, like this is something I work on on a daily meal by meal snack by snack basis. So this is newer for me as of the pandemic. And it's absolutely something that is I think I'll work on for the rest of my life, which is like anything else like for whatever this is how one deals with like impact of trauma. You just work on it for the rest of your life. It is never complete over or like healed into its own little box.
Larissa Parson:Well, and this is how we walk through a culture that's constantly telling us that we need to be monitoring how many doughnuts we're eating all the time, whether or not we have actual health concerns that require that level of monitoring. So, it's not just trauma, it's our culture. Yeah, we could even say 'is our culture trauma?'.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, it is. Well, right. And that's the other piece, right. So, if you think about the trauma that you're constantly sort of dealing with or kind of the ramifications or the after effects of, you're also like living in a culture that says,'Get over it. What's past is past and don't cry over spilt milk. So, it's the same sort of parallel.
Larissa Parson:Exactly. Okay, let's get back to a less serious plenty enough problem. So my plenty enough problem has been a truly lifelong problem. It's bras That's my struggle. I don't have enough bras that I absolutely love. That are like wear them everyday bras. I have a lot that are okay. I have a lot that are good enough. I'm wearing one right now. I have a sports bra. And it's good enough.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It's good enough.
Larissa Parson:It's fine. I don't hate it. I mostly feel like I'm tolerating them. And that's a very frustrating plenty enough problem. I would like to be able to look in my drawer and pick out a bra the way that I can pick out the shorts that I love or the shirts that I love. I have a lot of clothes that I love the way they feel my body. And bras are not it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Virginia Sole-Smith has something on like Jean science. Has she done anything on bras?
Larissa Parson:I have a difficult to fit body type where my band is relatively small compared to my cup size. And so that's tricky, but I'm also not, I'm also not thin. And so a lot of bras that are built for that kind of proportion situation are built for people who are thinner builds. So it's really hard. And I hate underwires, which is also another problem. Anyway, okay now, so I can rant about bras all day. I'm going to stop. The more serious, plenty enough struggle for me is time. And I think this is something that resonates with most people in this culture is feeling like you have enough time - for all the things you want to do, for all the people you want to see, all the work that you want to create, or all the creative projects that you want to engage in, if that's your thing. Like if you want to knit, whatever, that kind of stuff. I tend to do a lot of revenge bedtime procrastination, where I'll sit up on my phone doing nothing important at 11 o'clock at night. And then I spend, you know, time thinking about how that activity in itself gets in the way of feeling the kind of capaciousness of time, like if I'm doing this late at night, am I wrecking my morning? Could I be going to bed earlier and then getting up in the morning and having like, these nice, quiet productive hours. I think it's also, for me in particular, some of this is about like, what are the hours of the day when my brain is like, on and sharp and ready to go? We record this
podcast at 12:30. In the afternoon, a lot of the time, this is one of my best times of day, most days of the week, I am actively managing kids during this time of day instead of doing intellectual work. And that is really, really difficult. So, those are my plenty enough struggles.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think the time piece is super interesting. Someone at my writing group if we could switch to a later time, and it was like, Y'all can, but I definitely can't show up and do much from 7 - 9:30 pm. I mean, I go to bed early. My brain is completely done at that point. I've been up for a long time. It just doesn't work for me. So I totally get that piece about when my brain functions are the times that I need to be doing the work. But I say that and my child is in school full time. So she goes to school at quarter
after eight and picks up 3:30 - 3:45 pm, whatever it is, you know, so that's different. That's very different. You know, I think there's still moments especially when there's a lot of birthdays or holidays, or there's a big school vacation where I don't feel like I have enough time. But overall, I don't feel that way as much as I used to. And I'm trying to do something super different this year in like, every possible way. And like, my word of the year that I keep coming back to is transform. So I'm really trying to do things differently, which for me means, you know, saying no more or saying that's not a thing for right now. Or what's my enough? Like, how much enough am I working with right now, which helps me with a time thing. So those are kind of like my little pieces that when I think about time I think about how thatshows up with someone like me who's kiddo is in school full time and also, like, what does it mean to work with different hours of the day and fill that space?
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I love that. I love that saying no. That's magical people. I am still not as good at it as Elizabeth is, but I'm learning.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Super interesting. I was looking for some extra paint - just a little bit of paint for a little project. And someone I posted on my neighborhood listserv, and someone responded, said, here's this, and I totally dropped the ball. I was supposed to go see her last week and pick it up. And the problem was that the time was so open ended, I didn't have anything on my calendar. I didn't have anywhere to slot it. And so I didn't do that. And that's very unusual for me to have something be open and like just call before you come over. It's a totally different way for me to respond to something. So I forgot. Totally slipped my mind and then I was like oh, and I can't do it during the week. So but thank you so much for the offer and then she said you don't have any time during the week? And I was like I so want it took everything that I had to not reply back and be like, can I tell you about the two meal trains I've got and the neighbor coming over for dinner and the drop off of food at the hospital for someone who now has cancer and this and this and a child pickup and drop off and making lunches and going to work two days. I didn't do it. I didn't do it but I was so close. Some people have a lot more space in their days. And I was like'unfortunately I can't but thank you' and that's just how I left it. And I was like 'whoo' but I totally wanted to get into it because I was like there's just not I can't I'm not going to add one more thing in and I'm sorry that I let you down. I'm sorry. I'm gonna miss out on your paint, you know, but No.
Larissa Parson:I'm just stunned that somebody would even ask that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I was surprised to but I tend to chalk it up to someone who does not have children and is older. And I actually don't know the story of this woman at all. So that could be totally incorrect.
Larissa Parson:And also, like, you could just leave it out on her porch and be like Kumbaya and it'll be out there for a week. Okay, I get it. You don't have time. I'll put it out for the weekend. And hopefully we'll be able to pick it up then. And if you can't just let me know. Anyway, she could have been burned a bunch on like Buy Nothing groups. Sometimes it happens. Okay, so what else?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Ah, work. Yeah, work is a big one. That is a piece where it's plenty of enough. Have I done enough today? At the end of the day, have I done enough? Interestingly, I don't feel that way about parenting. I know I have done a stack every single goddamn day of my life since the kid was born. And before, right?
Larissa Parson:And before because you're reading parenting books. And you were doing like, prental...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:yeah, he may go on prenatal yoga. Yeah, I was doing all that and I chiropractic I've been I am never thinking that. And that's a huge privilege that I have. I only have one child. I do not work full time for someone else outside the home, have an hour commute have to deal with billable hours, travel blah, blah, blah. I don't have to deal with any of that. Intentionally, so. An intentional choice to not to have that be my life, basically. But I never feel that way about parenting. I know I did everything. I've done a ton.
Larissa Parson:Yes, sorry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No, just I know I've done enough, which is plenty.
Larissa Parson:Thank you. I think there are very few parents who would not say that parenting who would not say yeah, so parenting expands to fill all available gaps in the day. If you're, you know, like any gaps you've got, you can be busy doing parenting-related things. Yes. My kids are older. It doesn't look like playing with my kids. It looks like filling out forms a lot of forms. So many forms.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I want like all the like the expletives We're gonna have to put a little E on this episode. to go in there. Like like shit, fuck, yowza, damn. You know, all the ... This is not the clean episode. All the expletives right here. All the goddamn forms all the time - all the signup geniuses, all the meal trains, all the coordination, all the forms
Larissa Parson:For me, it's like, where are my kids going to be, so I can make this appointment for myself? I need to go to the dentist. I need to go the optometrist. These are things that I have to do during the days when I have like kids all day. How do I fit those in?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. That's a very good point. Yep. And so there's the forms and the admin, and there's the emotional labor, even if your kid doesn't need you to play with them. We talked much. It's so much more. I think I was such a naive parent. I imagined it would get less. It does not, so far. My child is in middle school but I imagined there would be less and there is not there is the same amount, if not more, because the opportunity sometimes are a little bit less, because we're not spending the chunks of time together that we had at one point. That's fascinating to me. And I will say I'm so grateful for it. Because I did not have the same relationship with my own mother. So I'm very grateful that she turns to me and says, someone said this to me, and I didn't understand what they meant, or whatever. But it's still it is still emotional labor. And we can't we can't highlight that enough, I don't
Larissa Parson:No, I don't think we can highlight that think. enough at all. It's constant emotional labor. It is constant, kind of monitoring your kids emotional well being and health and all of that stuff. And just like being attuned to, there's something that's going on, and I need to check in with them. And especially as my kids get older, it's also doing a lot of emotional labor for myself, as I help them navigate things that I didn't necessarily have help navigating, or that weren't a thing that we talked about openly in the 80s like sexuality and gender . Having to do the emotional labor of keeping my nervous system just like chilled out while we're having really difficult conversations where we're talking about.. Like, car rides are my favorite emotional labor time. Or like, let's have an educational conversation around HIV AIDS epidemic of the 80s and 90s. Because that's what I really want to do is like, remember everything about what it was like to grow up afraid to have sex. Or being scared into like, if you do this, then this will happen and you will die.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:You mentioned in your newsletter the piece with Michael and Aubrey on sugar being as addictive as cocaine - as street drugs. Michael's like, because of the DARE program, I thought I was gonna get offered cocaine all the time and I wasn't cool enough and I'm like, me too, Michael. I thought I was gonna get offered cocaine and pot all the time. And I guess same I was absolutely not cool enough. I just wasn't. I mean, but it's like this thing that you're like, "everywhere I look, someone's gonna be offering me drugs and they're gonna be street drugs, and I'm gonna get hooked. And I'm not. I have multiple people in my world who are suffering from addiction and/or in recovery and/or actively trying to, you know, change things themselves. So I am not mocking or in any way, you know, belittling pieces about addiction or alcoholism. I have first hand experience - happy to talk offline. And this is just not a tactic that worked in any way in terms of helping people understand or prevent them from using drugs, just like just say no, you know, but wow.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, just like abstinence education. There's so much labor involved.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So much labor. We could talk about this for a long time.
Larissa Parson:Yes, we could. So, let's go back.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Let's say a little bit about work. So work is this piece where there's a plenty and enough sort of thing. Every day, I'm like, "Have I done enough?" And this has been true since I stopped working full time for someone else, right. At the end of the day, I could leave for the most part. Even if I took pager shifts or whatever, I was still not in the office, you know? But as a business owner, there's always more work to do, right? You just said parenting can fill the hours that we have. So there's always more work to do, you know. But this is a little bit like the 10,000 hour sort of Oliver Berkman stuff, you know, which is like another reminder to me that, at the end of the day, the work that I've done is probably enough, even if I don't feel that way, or I feel like unsatisfied with how much I checked off on my list. It's probably enough. And that is a piece that I'll still continue to work on. No pun intended for the rest of my life is my guess.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I think it's really important to recognize and, like highlight how our culture contributes to that feeling that it's not enough, even though it has it is actually likely enough. Like there's always something else. We can never produce or do enough for the culture.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yep. Thanks, capitalism. That's right. Yep, shows up all the time. I want to circle back to this piece, because I want to also underscore and sort of say, Yes, me too, to the piece around, like, emotional support and childhood. I was an only child once for like 15 months. I love my siblings very much. And I enjoy being with them. And, you know, I miss my sisters on a regular basis, but I swear to God, I remember when I was an only child, and I remember really liking it a lot. Like having me be the center of attention. And, you know, I whatever I was 15 months when my sister Sarah was born, so I don't think this is real, but then there could be these memories that you have that you don't have language for, because you weren't able to talk during that time. But it feels real, you know. But ever afterwards, I always have sort of struggled or I struggled, because I was told that I wanted too much, or that I needed too much or that I was too much. So I was told this on a regular basis that that sunk in. And now, I can't even imagine like a message like that being like for my daughter, even though she's like a talker. She's very extroverted. But still, I can't even imagine ever being like, you are too much, it's too much. That seems like such a breaker of spirits. And yeah, it kind of was.
Larissa Parson:Um, you know, I can relate to that so hard as the talker child who was often silenced like 'this is not the time to talk, you may not talk now, nobody wants to hear what you have to say', Or just like not having people to talk to. I'm gonna throw us off on a tangent here for just a second. I swear, I'll come back on topic. But it's been one of those things where I've been learning more and more about ADHD lately. This is very characteristic that you are a lot for a lot of people. And it's just because that's how my brain works. And it's taken a lot of unlearning that that is like a problem - that it's not actually a problem to be that to be the talky person who has lots of ideas, who wants to talk about all of them all the time. Learning how to receive people's limits and capacity for that is, is different from silencing myself. You know. And we can talk about that a little bit when we jump into talking about our right people, but like, there's this meme that I love that's been going around for a long time. And it comes up in lots of different forums, lots of different graphics behind it, but basically, it's if I'm too much for you, then go choose less. Like, I am not too much for my right people and I'm not too much for me, either.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right. You know, that's a nice point, right? I like that. You're not too much for you. It's not too much. I'm not too much for me. And my chorus for years has been you're never too much for your right people. They can handle it. And if they can't handle it, we trust them to tell us they cannot. That's what we have.
Larissa Parson:That's so key! Do you want me to talk about right people, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I do just like, I'm like, Well, do we, but you know, yes, we do. You're always talking about right people, and you never know when someone's gonna bust into your podcast, and one of those final episodes be like her. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But let's, let's shout it out. Let's shout it out. Because we can't ever hear it too much. Anyway. So there we go.
Larissa Parson:I'll shout it out. And I'll shout it out with an example. Like, nice. There are right people in your life for whom you can be too much. And so sometimes you have to say, I know that whatever. Or you maybe have right people in your life who can be overwhelming for you for whatever trauma response reason, whatever it is. And you don't necessarily have to say this out loud to them. You can set a boundary without saying like,"You're too much for me, I can only hang out with you once a month", you just make plans with them once a month or once every six months instead of like every day. It's simple. We talked about this in the friendship episode quite a bit - that you can set these boundaries and have your people be in your life in ways that feel comfortable and doable for you. But who are right people are right people. Are those golden friends, our chosen family. I love to use these terms a little interchangeably sometimes for people to know the term chosen family. There are those friends who give as much as they get invest time in the relationship, champion your success. They are healthy and safe for you and can be trusted with your vulnerable self. Those are our right people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Those are our right people. They're out there for all of us. I want to Yeah, sorry, I'm stealing your words. I just wanted to pause this for like a super brief testimonial. I love love loved the friendships podcast episode. That's our most recent one. I was just talking to another friend about "friend guilt", and really loved in the beginning reiterating that one person isn't all the things. The "best friend" rivalry/jealousy at our age feel so silly, but it shows up in so many ways. Thank you anonymous. appreciate that feedback, and so grateful for you for listening.
Larissa Parson:Those kind words and reviews help people find us so consider giving one to us, if you please.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I feel like right, people are a good place to start considering what plenty and enough looks like. The discourse around everything feels to me like more is better. But I know I feel differently. What are you thinking, Larissa?
Larissa Parson:So, um, you know, I like to collect friends like the Pokemon.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's a good visual.
Larissa Parson:Well, I think it's a good visual. Hopefully that reference will hit with a bunch of y'all. I think that you and I, Elizabeth, have different sizes of inner circles. And so I want to say to anyone else who is like me, who is a kind of Pokemon collector kind of friend that that is totally fine. And again, that goes back to the question of 'how much capacity do I have to be present in a good friend way, to how many people? Maybe this one person that can show up for more sporadically, more periodically, episodically than weekly. And that's okay. Because again, we can't be everything to everyone. So back to my Pokemon metaphor. Part of the reason that I love this is I love having lots of different people to connect with. Maybe this is like the way my brain works, maybe it's just that I really like different people. And I really enjoy that variety of inputs and thoughts and personalities. But I also have a ridiculous number of interests, honestly. And so I have different friends for different interests for different kinds of occasions for different kinds of things that I want to do. What all of them have in common is that they're relationships that center common values, reciprocity, mostly clear communication, even though we all mess up, sometimes there's no perfect communicator out there, and a commitment to maintaining that connection. So investing the time in the relationship. And at the same time, you know, like, I'm a Pokemon collector, but my Pokeball is full. I am at capacity for new friendships right now, which doesn't mean I'm not open to meeting and connecting with new people. I'm just probably not going to be, you know, bringing them in and like a deep, intimate way. Right now. I want to make sure that I'm spending time being a good friend to the people that I am connected with already.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Yeah. I have been thinking a lot about this and I feel like I am at that kind of capacity, too. I'm realizing I have more people in my community that I wouldn't call friend friends. You and I have talked about this before about this idea of and actually Tressie McMillan Cottom had said something about needing some different language because they're not acquaintances, they're not friends, or right people, they're not Facebook friends. They're somewhere in the middle of all of these. It's some sort of word. I don't know what it is. But they're people that I keep track of, people that I care about. And I think I have a lot of people in those circles, maybe more than you because I think you have more friend friends, maybe than I do. But what I'm realizing is that like, I like those, those friend friends sort of relationships. And that number works for me, because it's the same sort of idea, there are people that I can keep track of the people that I can feel connected to. There are people with whom there is some shared values. I will say that I think a piece that's not common with you and I when we're talking about characteristics here is like that commitment to maintain the connection or that maybe valuing, I think commitment to maintain a connection is important, but maybe not valuing it as highly as I would. And I think that's sort of a thing. But I've kind of come to the conclusion that some of those folks I have in my friend friend category, because they feel important to me, but they may not feel as invested in the idea of friendship as another extension of like, important relationship, like we've talked about with Mia Birdsong and, of course, Dr. Franco with you know, platonic as I do. It is a super important thing for me. And, yeah, so that's, I think, some pieces that are kind of worth noting when you're talking about this,
Larissa Parson:I feel like this could be such a long episode.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Not so much more, I don't think.
Larissa Parson:I really need to say this, though. This goes back to this thing that we were talking about a little bit earlier today. So, Elizabeth and I were chatting before we started recording. And one of the things that we were talking about is how I put a lot of value, importance, weight, significance on my friendships. They are as important to me as romantic relationships. Obviously, you do some things in romantic relationships that you don't always do with your friends. But that level of vulnerability, intimacy and mutual respect, care, etc, is super important to me, in all kinds of relationships. And I would say I do have a pretty large number of not quite friend friends - the people that I am keeping tabs on. Those are the people I go for walks with every three, six months, you know. It's not always if I haven't seen you in a week, I need to see you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Those are like Pokemon friends.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, or maybe those are like the Pokemon that- I don't want to rate people. I don't wanna do that. There are different quantities of that I do feel like it's important to say that like, I would challenge our listeners to add a little bit more value and importance to those friendships because they really matter. And if we're feeling lonely, maybe it's not necessarily your romantic partner who needs to fix that for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I would say it's not your romantic partner that needs to fix that for you.
Larissa Parson:No, it's really not.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Like it's totally not and of course, that's assuming that you're feeling lonely with a romantic partner.
Larissa Parson:If you have a partner. If you don't have a partner, then you really need those friends. Y'all those friends are your people. Those people are your life partners. They are the people who will walk with you through all of your changes, your events, everything. There's been a lot of stuff out lately about friendship and how important it is to our well-being. There are basically three markers that you need for well being - friends, move your body a little every day, eat vegetables, drink water. And it doesn't have to be that many vegetables. Drink water. Hang out with people you like.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think it's like, it's yeah, there's nothing else to say. You totally said it. You absolutely said it. Maybe from here, we can look at how do we figure out plenty enough for us? What are some tips that we can move people towards? Or get people to think about if this feels like something that's resonating with them?
Larissa Parson:So I think that sadly, the most important thing is figuring out what exactly you need and want. Yeah, and I think that's actually very hard for a lot of us, because we have so many messages coming in from outside about what we should need and should want. And what should be satisfying and what should be enough. What should be plenty. So, it's getting clear on what is right for you, versus what is right for other people. And let's start small with this. Like, do I need to have caffeine in the morning? I do. Maybe you don't. So then, are you getting the thing you want in the morning? Is it a cup of tea? Is it a stretch? Is it to drink water? Whatever. And then get clear on when we're thinking about plenty enough, like in general, broad categories of our lives - are our needs being met? And some of the wants, too? like, I have food. And if I want to donut, I can have one. And so, I feel like I'm not lacking for something. If I'm feeling like there's a lack then, can I figure out what to do about that? Then there's probably plenty. If generally, my basic needs are met and some of my wants, then I'm in a plenty enough place. That doesn't mean that there can't be more or that the quality can't change or, you know, like that's not a changeable, movable target here. It's like, the basically I'm okay. And there's a baseline here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. I like the adding in there that it can change.
Larissa Parson:Well, our needs do change. And I think the idea that they always stay the same is ridiculous.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, absolutely. And what feels important to us, like, the coffee thing that we start the day with, may not be the same thing in six months. Maybe we choose something completely different. And that still starts to work for us, too.
Larissa Parson:Maybe coffe doesn't make you feel good. And they try something else. Sorry, I was interrupting.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's okay. I'm thinking inside. Um, so one way I think, is that we can practice this, right. What is the thing? And is there a way that we can practice this? And I think that this is always easier with the right people, because pretty much everything is easier with our right people, right? They help they help us stay focused on ourselves and what we need, instead of what, like capitalism, or the hustle or diet culture or beauty culture or any of these outside systems of oppression are telling us that we should be doing or we should want. So our right people would ask "What's that about? Who are you paying attention to there? Is this serving you?"
Larissa Parson:Yeah! They can help you tune into the feeling of being satisfied or being full. I was eating dinner last night with one of my right people. And I was like, Am I done? And they're like, "well, there's a couple bites of your burger left. You feel like you want that?" I was like, "I'll try it." You know, it was a really interesting moment where I'd had a hard day, so I wasn't totally tuned into my body. But my right person could say, hey, why don't you try another bite, and if you don't want it, then you're done. I was like, Oh*laughs*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I guess I can do that.
Larissa Parson:I guess I can do that. Our right, people can validate when we're hitting the point of satisfaction.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think this also reminds me too because it's been a week, Larissa. When we're tired, or we're depleted or we're not feeling well or there's something that's going on for us, we are just less in that space to have capacity or, you always say spoons, to to be able to deal with even the smallest choices. And so our right people can kind of shift perspective back on to us for those things. And that's super useful. It's such a good example.
Larissa Parson:I'm glad that's helpful.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, it's good. It's good. Um, I think this about our podcast, too, right. It's our last year when I came to the conclusion that we've said as much as we need to in this space or feel compelled to in this format. How did we get here? What do you think went into some of your thinking around - Is this plenty? Is this enough? Are we are we done? How do we know? How did you know?
Larissa Parson:You know, it's interesting, because I think you and I had been having a lot of conversations as we were going into this season of recording, having nothing to do with the podcast, but about how burntout I was. And you kept saying you're really burnt out. Can you do less? And I kept doing "no, I can do more!".
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That sounds familiar.
Larissa Parson:People who know me really well know that this is my tendency to just like keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing. And, you know, you kept asking me, "Can you do less here? Can you do less there?" And I kept taking things away and taking things away and taking things away outside of the podcast, until I was able to sit with: I am really burnt out. I am really overwhelmed. I am really tired. I've been doing the most for the last couple of years. And I need to stop. So when you said to me, maybe we're done - the podcast. For a second paused. And I was like, are we? Yes. I think so.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:People are hanging in here with us because Yeah, can I throw some thing in there? they are patient with our constant talking about right people. But this is just another piece where like, this is such a shining example of what it means to be with one of your right people. I would never do such as do this endeavor with anyone except you, Larissa There's just no way I would do this with anyone except you. I can't see myself starting this, doing this with someone else. I just can't. Because you are one of my right people. But number two is like, gosh, that is a hard thing to be able to say to someone in theory. But with your right people, you're kind of like, you know what, she's not going to... It's interesting, my first thing is she's not going to hit me. She's not going to yell at me. She is not going to walk away from me. She's not going to think I'm not working hard enough. She's not going to berate me in some way or Yeah. whatever. She's just going to take it in, and so forth. But before I mentioned this to you, I was kind of like, how is Larissa going to take this? And I'm like, she's going to take it fine. And she did. And you did. It was a positive like a couple of seconds. And then you kind of gave me your thoughts. And I think that this is just sort of another piece of like, what it means to kind of talk about hard things with your right people. And when you bring up something that's like plenty or enough, and how they kind of help you sort through it. And are there in it with you. Right?
Larissa Parson:So, it hadn't occurred to me that this could be one of the things that I stopped doing. That's what the pause was just like, I can do that? Okay. And I think it's really important to note that in a lot of other situations, when presented with something I wasn't necessarily expecting that I've worked really hard on getting that pause, and not immediately going into like a either a people pleasing response or a freeze. And that's what the beauty of right people is - you feel safe enough to let yourself process before you start responding. And, I think that's all I want to say cuz I feel like you've got more to say that is really good. And I want people to hear.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think sometimes with stuff like this, I also try to trick myself into quitting things. Because you know the normative sort of line is to don't don't give up to keep hustling. Keep going. It's this capitalist-based message that's just sort of like to continue to keep working. You always have more to do. And there's a piece for me, too around like this entitled kind of like white woman privilege, like you should, you should be hearing from me and my thoughts on this thing, you know, but it's it feels important for me to to like make space for other people. So I say trick because it's kind of going against what I've been trained to do. Which is like to produce to show up to do the labor, you know, to give it away, to do, to put it out there to the world.
Larissa Parson:I don't want to discount that people should be hearing from you on this, because I think people should be hearing from you on this.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Well, let me just say thank you to that. And yeah, think that's good. I'll say thank you. Thank you.
Larissa Parson:And thank you for like, realizing that I was not gonna hit you, Elizabeth. I don't hit people. But *laughing*
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think it's honestly it's like someone's gonna be angry, and they're gonna lash out, in a way that's like, that's, that's violent or unpredictable or scary.
Larissa Parson:And that's like, that goes right back to like talking about trauma. Right there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:What are the things we think? Okay, I'm gonna bring it back. I can do this.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Bring it back. Bring us back. Yeah.
Larissa Parson:So what we've been trained to do is produce. What we've been trained to do is expect certain responses from other people. What we've been trained to do is to think we have to keep being the same forever.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:We don't and we don't have to keep going with things if we're tired. Or, let's say we want to do other things. Let's say there are things that we want to do that are not, you know, editing podcasts.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So I think also about titration. Right? When I think about, like, ways that we can incorporate this in our life and try to figure it out, right? I think'what's the one place I can start'? You know, you mentioned like, starting like, it's the coffee or whatever your way is? How are you starting? How are you starting your day? What about breakfast? What do I need to do, right Larissa, to feel nourished and fed and cared for and like, I'm starting my day in the way that I want to. Then we build off of that. I don't know if that's a good example forever. But since I tend to deal with like scarcity, thinking and also love to eat, it's important for me to think about getting my needs met at breakfast, or like, beginning of the day. What do you think?
Larissa Parson:I agree. I don't struggle with scarcity in the same way, but I do struggle with nourishing myself appropriately. And by appropriately I just mean, like, literally, I have tried living on potato chips. It doesn't work. It doesn't work, y'all. It's not enough food. And it's not the right food. So, for me, it is like, what are the routines, I need to have a place to feel nourished every day so that I don't have to think too hard about it? Because thinking too hard about it is the hard thing for me. With plenty and enough, do I feel basically secure? And safe? In myself in my home? Yeah, most of the time. There's never an all the time. In my relationships, I basically feel like I am with people who are secure places for me to be with. Not everybody in your community is going to be that we know that. But like, do I have enough of those people? Do I have plenty of those people in my life, that when I have a hard day, I know there are places I can go, there are people I can turn to?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I want to share something that came up when I put up the question on our social media, like how do you know when you've had enough? One person said when I've stopped caring.
Larissa Parson:Ahhh, that's so good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Bang, right? That's good. And that's such a huge clue. It's such a huge clue. And I'm gonna be honest, and also, you know, say that that was an indicator to me that I was done here with Wondermine. I love working with you. I love bringing content to people. I love creating conversations. And I love learning from people, you, each other, ideas that we have out there in the ether, but I can't stand the marketing of it. Right. And I didn't used to mind it. Right? I did. I didn't, I didn't as early as early this year. I was like, I'm okay with this. We're just gonna do it again. And then I'm like, I don't want to do it anymore. I'm done. Neither one of us do.
Larissa Parson:No, I can't do it. I physically getn frozne when I start working on marketing stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I don't want to do it. I don't wanna do it. A long time ago when I had a newsletter right in the early 2000s and that's the way. People had things in their blog and we went through the RSS feeder and that was the only way. There was a little bit of Facebook but like a lot of people just got their email newsletters and read it. And if there was something similar, if we were at a different point it'd be like solid, you know, but right now, know this is a crapshoot. Whenever I post something on Wondermine Insta, you can count on some people seeing it and like, you know, maybe making a comment. But for the amount of work that goes into this and the amount of people who see it, it just doesn't make sense. And it also doesn't, but you can't really do a podcast without sharing it out and spreading it widely, as much as you possibly can. So, I care about all of that, but I don't care about pumping it out anymore. And that was a clue to me that I'd had enough. When I stopped caring about that piece of it.
Larissa Parson:I'll add because this is my thing, right? I'll add that I was having bodily sensations of dragging, feeling, just like heavy weighted down, pulled down if it started coming into doing marketing. It's almost an existential level of dread when I have to sit down and edit transcripts, which I really value and am committed to doing. We could just not have transcripts, y'all. But I really believe in them as being really important for accessibility. So, when I am finding my body in conflict with my values,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Ooh, that's a good one, too.
Larissa Parson:maybe it's kind enough. Oh, my God, I could take that and take it like, I could expand that to 500 different things that have happened in the last few years. When my body is in conflict with my values, maybe I've had enough.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Larissa repeats that because she knows I'm writing it down right now.
Larissa Parson:I see you writing it down. And maybe that is where we're gonna end.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Let's end there. So I want to close with what we're eating as we normally do. And I don't want to forget to thank you. Let's let's close with what we're eating. And then we'll get into saying 'thank you'.
Larissa Parson:Okay, good. Because I feel like my body is really happy right now. What are we eating? Do you want to go first?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, I do want to go first.
Larissa Parson:I just surprised her.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Elizabeth had not planned on that. I don't know why, because it comes at the end of every single episode we do. And yet I had not. I will tell you last Saturday, I had some absolute fabulous strawberries. I did not go strawberry picking yet. But I went to the farmers market and picked up a couple of quarts. I think it was like a two pound-ish package. I don't know exactly how many quarts that is. It was a big package of beautiful strawberries and they were some of the best strawberries I have had in a long time. And we go through a ton of berries in our house because we all love them. And mainly my child loves them too. And it's funny, you kind of get used to kind of average tasting, you know what I mean? Like it's just sort of like the berries off season Driscoll's from whatever, Northern California. And these were amazing. They were local and they were fresh, and they were so sweet. And even though some of them were bigger, they weren't like waterlogged. They were just fabulous. So I think I'm gonna be eating more of those. I'm gonna go back to the farmers market tomorrow morning before I work and get some more because they were so so good.
Larissa Parson:That sounds amazing. I love Russian season. Especially berries when they're just so like juicy and sweet. And you know that you if you tried to package them up and take them to the grocery store, they would look sad and rotten. You know like they just they don't they don't keep. That's just amazing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:What about you? Yes, they were so good. am providing the steaks and they will be grilled for me. How lovely is this?
Larissa Parson:We don't know what we're having on the side. But it's going to be delicious, no matter what. I haven't had a steak in forever. I don't have a functional grill right now. So it's great. I'm excited for that. I'm looking forward to it. So yeah. I should just have it with strawberries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:But the farmers market's not open until tomorrow. And you're having steak tonight. So you need a potato or something like that.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I think we're gonna do mashed potatoes or something. Oh, yeah. That's great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Thank you.
Larissa Parson:Thank you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Thank you. Thank you all. Larissa's gonna give us our usual spiel and then Then what we'll then we'll close out.
Larissa Parson:Here's our usual spiel. If you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, please write us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps people find us and their wow and how of living a life of curiosity, community and liberation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:In the interim, follow us on Wonderminepodcast at Instagram. Thank you again. We will at some point stop on that Instagram, so don't follow us forever hoping for new content. It'll still be there. It's just not gonna be updated. And just from the bottom of my heart. This was just such a labor of love that we hate that expression. It feel so trite.
Larissa Parson:But it's so true, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:But it's so true. Sorry, y'all. It's so true. From the very beginning, we had an idea and y'all supported us. And we have thanked our patrons, I think in many, many ways, but thank you to everyone else who has ever listened ever shared a word ever shared an Instagram post or mentioned the podcast to a friend. I am so grateful for your support. It's huge.
Larissa Parson:It is huge. It is huge. We are so grateful. And Elizabeth, thank you for indulging, enjoying, engaging, I can't find the right verb. Diving into this project with me, it has been such a delight and such a joy and such a pleasure to collaborate with you on this and to get a chance to think interesting thoughts. I hope, I sure hope if you're listening as far as that they were interesting to you. It's been so much fun to work on this with you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It's been so much fun. Yeah, I feel exactly the same and again, would not have done this with any other person. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Larissa Parson:Thank you so much. All right. Thanks, everybody.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Bye.
Larissa Parson:We'll see you soon.
