Wondermine
Wondermine
Episode 5: Everyone's Doing The Best They Can
One reason it’s impossible to say that everyone is doing the best they can is because humans are physically unable to control a trauma/stress response. Elizabeth & Larissa dive deep into this idea.
NOTE: We actually recorded this episode early on, right after our intro episode, but then decided it didn't fit there. So you'll hear us refer to things that aren't quite current right now. We think you can handle it, and that you'll agree this fits better with the shift to winter!
Mentioned during the podcast:
Everyman by M. Shelly Conner
The Prophets by Robert Jones, Jr.
When Sorrows Come by Seanan McGuire
Rising Strong by Brené Brown
What Happened To You by Bruce Perry & Oprah Winfrey
Healing Through the Dark Emotions by Miriam Greenspan
Raising Human Beings by Ross Greene
Emily & Amelia Nagoski’s podcast
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Hey everyone, welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson, and I'm a joy coach, a pelvic floor nerd, and a huge Ted Lasso fan.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a writer and a researcher. I talk and write about trauma, relationships and culture. And I am a big fan of libraries.
Larissa Parson:Oh, I love that. I am a big fan of libraries, to have libraries, love libraries. Yeah. So Wondermine is the limited series feminist podcast that looks at the "wow" and the"how" of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, this is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And this is our second episode, we're going to be talking about the aphorism "everyone's doing the best they can". And spoiler, actually, they're not. And that's okay.
Larissa Parson:I love this topic. But before we dive in, let's get ourselves grounded and settled for our conversation. So we're gonna keep this really simple. Just feel because we're, I'm standing you're sitting, I think we're both going to just feel our feet on the ground. And you can also if you're sitting down and you're listening to this podcast, you could maybe notice what is supporting you besides your feet. So I don't know how you're sitting. Just take a moment to appreciate that you are supported. And that you don't have to do it all yourself. Alright. I feel we got it goes
Elizabeth M. Johnson:great. Okay. Yeah, that feels fantastic. Thank you.
Larissa Parson:Good. So let's start with a quick check in. How are you doing this morning?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm doing pretty well, this morning. I went on a really long walk with my friend Sarah, and then circled back back at the house and then was on my back porch, looking out at the sky. And it's just like the streaks of pink are just like, it's like that 7:05 like we're really close to sunrise. It's absolutely beautiful. And I was out there with just like some hot water with a little bit of apple cider vinegar in there. And kind of getting ready to sort of start the day and go on Instagram and just look at some other stuff after kind of a nice, big long walk. So that was great. Speaking of grounding. That was a great grounding place for me to start the day.
Larissa Parson:I love that. I love that. How am I doing today? I'm okay, I'm a little tired. But I'm making a lot of progress in my Animal Crossing flower hybrid project. Great. It's like, it's this very tedious process. And it's you know, it takes a little bit of time every day. And it's very enjoyable. And yeah, so I'm feeling good about that. And I'm feeling good about the rest of the day I have planned and I'm just so excited to be here with you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I am so excited to. And I think though before we get into our conversation, you and I talked about this idea of starting off each episode with this idea about what we're reading. So I want to I want to do that since we're both big readers and big eaters. And so content note, as we finish our topic, this when we when because we want to wind down our conversation this morning or whenever you're listening. We'll end with what we're going to be eating this week. So if that doesn't appeal to you, that doesn't feel good to you for any reason you can turn that off knowing that's coming right now. But we're figured we would start with reading. So Larissa, what are you reading right now that you want to share with us?
Larissa Parson:Oh my gosh. So I am having a blast reading the most recent Seanan Mcguire October Daye book, which is called When Sorrows Come. It's the 15th book in the series. So Oh, oh yeah. She's very prolific. Okay. And it is just so delightful to immerse myself in this world that I know and love. And that has been something that I've been reading in. Is that residing in as a reader for a few years now. It's just like, it's really fun, and I'm loving it. How about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's fantastic. I think I might need to know more about that as a side thing. So and 15 prolific is absolutely one of those words that I would have used. That's, that is bonkers, amazing. And this isn't...
Larissa Parson:her only series. Wow. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:This is like one of these things like where I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad I don't write fiction. I would be feeling a certain kind of way. Let's see, what am I reading? Oh, I know. The thing. I've got some notes in front of me. I'm reading everyman by M. Shelly Conner. And it is as weighty and as perfect as it might possibly be. It's just absolutely stunningly brilliant. And I read Kiese Laymon's review, and I just was like nodding along and just really kind of feeling everything he was feeling. And he said, "Every man is the rare 21st century novel that feels like Morrison and Walker guided the hand up the characters, and the writer calling it home. " Hands down, one of the best books I've ever read. And I know I have said that recently. And it was actually in March, when I was talking about Robert Jones Jr's_The Prophets_. I am not a big fiction fan, but I feel like I have had a year of incredible fiction. And this book is is similar actually, _The Prophets_ have some similar themes going on here. We've got queer love, and we've got magic. We've got family secrets, we've got like journeys home, there's a lot going on. It's incredible. I'm almost done with it. And I am savoring every page.
Larissa Parson:Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. You said queer love and magic. And I'm like, Oh, that's those are two words that are like, they're like catnip to me. So yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and add that to my cart. Right now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So good. So good.
Larissa Parson:Thank you. Thank you for that. That's so excited. So today, we are talking about how everyone's doing the best they can, I feel like is that I want I really want to tie that into our books. Right? And I can say that in the October Day books, nobody is doing the best they can all the time. Absolutely never. And I'm gonna guess that that's similar. Also, in everyman that people are often not doing the best they can.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:solid, solid guess as, as always Larissa.
Larissa Parson:So how do you want to like, start us off with that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So this, I want to start us off with a little bit of a background story. And this idea that"everyone's doing the best they can," this aphorism, or whatever we'd like to call it, this conversation that we're going to have is something I've been wanting to have for a really long time. I can remember this being a thing for me since I was in this conversation with a survivor that I will call Marie. As long as she and I have known each, she has told me more and more of her story. And she's told me about some child trauma and things that happened as a teen and adult. So I've got more and more of the big picture of her history over the seven years I have known her. And at one point in a conversation with her, she asked me, did I think her mom was doing the best she could. Yeah. And I-for those who don't know- I am not a counselor. I don't really want to give advice, per se and I don't really want to be in that spot of, of having to solve a solve a situation for you. But I also have known her for a long time. And so I struggled with this. I've said in my own mind that I've felt like everyone's doing the best I can was a little bit of a sham, like it came from people who had no concept of other people's stories of trauma as children. Or when they were hurt as adults. But as Marie was talking to me about this, I was finishing Brene Brown's new book, Rising Strong. And she talks in there about her decision to believe that everyone is doing the best they can. And she says this about and I'm gonna read just an excerpt here. She says, "Do I believe that serial killers and terrorists are doing the best they can? Yes. And their best is dangerous, which is why I believe we should catch them, lock them up and assess if they can be helped. If they can't, they stay locked up. That's how compassion and accountability work. " So you know, in theory, Larissa I love the idea of everyone doing the best they can and yet as an abuse survivor myself and as someone who's worked with survivors for the bulk of their career, I feel like I know better. But in spite of all of that, I went against this feeling. I went against my gut instinct here and things that I did know. And I decided to trust in this idea. Like just to go with I'm going to go with what she says, right? I'm going to take this on as and say yes, everyone's doing the best they can. Who am I to disagree?
Larissa Parson:Right? Oh, how did that land for you? When you said that? Like in your body? How did that feel?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Not good. I remember it. I've regretted it ever since. And I can tell you there's not a whole lot that i've regretted in conversations that I've had with survivors. But that one I do.
Larissa Parson:that I hear that. I mean, like, you're not Brene Brown. So yeah. Which I'm not either. But you have expertise in this that you can draw on. And I'm sure that's part of why it felt so not good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. Right. And I think that's that's it. I really doubted myself in my own knowledge in this area. And I'm like, she has all the titles, the swag, the TED talk, she's so well known. And she's incredible. And she's just all of these things. And I was like, okay, no one goes against that, right? So I said to Marie, here's the words that I regret. I said, "Yes. I think your mom was doing the best she can and obviously wasn't good enough, because she allowed you to get hurt." And I've regretted it ever since. I didn't feel good about at the moment. But I couldn't really put my finger on why it was a problem. And so I kind of just sort of, like, let it go. But I've been thinking this through for like five or six years now. I've done some research around it and had conversations and kind of arrived at that place where I think I can identify my issue with the idea of "everyone's doing the best they can," And you and I've talked about this, why this idea of everyone's doing the best they can doesn't actually work, right? And why it's kind of okay that doesn't work. And that's really what we're talking about today. But I want to back up and say "thank you" for sort of honoring that piece that and seeing me knowing that I do have some expertise in sort of encouraging me to, to sort of step up into that, because you're right, you know, and shout out to the idea of#yourrightpeople.
Larissa Parson:I was literally gonna say that. Go ahead.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Because like, your right people, one of their hallmark traits is helping you show up. And you're doing that right in this moment. So thank you for that. But I do have expertise in this area. Ding, Ding, ding. So let me share something relevant as we get into our talk a little bit more like richly here. One thing is we can't control a stress or a trauma response. Right? We can't. So one reason it's impossible that everyone's doing the best they can, is because humans are physically incapable, really unable to control that trauma/ stress response.
Larissa Parson:I feel like there's a real desire among people to learn how to control that trauma and stress response. So can we talk a little bit more more about that idea of that we can't, like can you give me an example of what that means? What does it looks like?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So I want to give an example about my, my survivor friend Shay. She served in the military spent a lot of time doing some pretty scary stuff, leaves the military and then moves back here to Durham. And she moved downtown and we're at a bar downtown. And she hears a really loud firecracker goes off. Shay falls to the ground under the table that we're at, and she just takes me down with her. She can't control that response. Her actions are a response to this past military trauma that she has been exposed to. And it's triggered by that firecracker sound that she hears in the background. So, let's back up a little bit. And I've talked about this in other settings. But Dr. Bruce Perry, talks about this at length in his new fabulous book that he co authored with Oprah Winfrey, which is so good, "What Happened
to You?:Conversations on trauma, resilience and healing. Perry talks abou how the brain processes information. And he tells us that sensory input -- that includes sounds-- are first processed in the lower part of the brain. He says the lower brain gets dibs. That means that before any new experience has a chance to be considered by the higher thinking part of the brain, okay? That's the cortex, the area responsible for creative work, problem solving and concepts of time and all that stuff, the lower part of the brain has already interpreted and responded to it. That's basically what's going on there. So we cannot control our environment. And because we cannot control our environment, we can't be counted on to be able to control our actions all the time. We can respond better to those actions instead of maybe feeling embarrassed and ashamed. Like "why am I like this, and there's something wrong with me," kind of these typical reactions when we react disproportionately to the big thing that's happened, we can kind of come to better understanding and be gentler with ourselves around why that happens, and understanding our actions. This is just like one example I'm thinking about related to why it's impossible to be doing the best you can, because it implies that you're able to control everything all the time.
Larissa Parson:Right? Right. I kind of secretly would love to live in a world that is so predictable, that I can control everything that is going on all the time. And I think that many, many people would love to do that. I mean, that will take some of the joy and serendipity out of things. But that's not the world we live in. And I see this all the time with stress responses, especially watching my kids, honestly, is one of the places where I've learned the most about trauma and stress responses, and what they can actually control and what what I can actually control myself. But we're talking about adults. So how do we live with this idea? that we're not in charge of everything? And how do we do our best? If we aren't in charge of everything, if we're not in control of everything?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I like that question. Because it's like, So when can we take that on? And when does it benefit us to take it on? And when is it a good idea to put that aside, and this sort of gets into this, like, lovely piece that you and I keep talking about this? You know, it's this yes/and piece, because as you point out we would really love to be able to control a lot more. It would feel safer, certainly for some trauma survivors, right? And for some, the absence of joy would I wanted to think about this idea of "everyone's doing the make life unbearable. best they can," from a lot of different angles. So I emailed my brother in law, who is a philosophy professor at the University of Oklahoma, and sais"hey what do you you think about this?" . I asked him about this idea of everyone doing the best they can. Shout out Matt Priselac University of Oklahoma Associate Professor of History of modern philosophy. He made a point that I thought was really interesting. And relevant. He says, you know, this idea of everyone doing the best they can can still lead to bad outcomes. Yeah, that things can still happen, right? We can do the best we can and still end up in this like, really bad situation, we can wear the seatbelt and still be in a car accident or whatever, you know, and I think this fact, is something that kind of gets missed in this idea of everyone doing the best they can sometimes. I feel like we sometimes use "everyone is doing the best they can," as sort of like a talisman like, if we all did the best we could we would be fine. I mean, I am very pro mask wearing, but certainly I feel like I've seen this with masks. If everyone could just get on board, you know, goddamnit we would all be out of this pandemic! Well, we don't know that right? I'm not saying that would be a bad or worse outcome. But we don't know. We can only sort of control some of these pieces that our brain even will allow us to do. So"everyone doing the best they can," doesn't guarantee anything. That things would be good, better, fixed.
Larissa Parson:hmm. That's a lot to take in Elizabeth. I'm just gonna say. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was jotting down when you were talking, I was like, Oh COVID is exactly the case where we're having this thought that this, this pandemic would just be over if everybody did the best they could. And, and that's not true. I think, when I think about this, is it okay, if I share another train of thought here, please? I am thinking, because it's what's happening to my body right now. But also, maybe only let me pull it out for my own recovery from surgery. And to say that a lot of the folks I work with are recovering from injury, or have things like pelvic organ prolapse, or diastasis, recti, or something like that. And immediately when you say, well, that we can be doing the best we can, but that doesn't guarantee that nothing will go wrong, or that nothing will get broken or, or whatever. Like, there's so many scenarios that this could apply to, but I was thinking about the healing process in the body and how you can be doing the best you can. And you can't predict how long that healing timeline is going to take necessarily. You can't tell if like, you're going to slip and fall during your healing process. And that's gonna set you back a couple steps or something like that. There's just no way and you know, you can't tell for me, it's been like, I can't predict whether my kids are sleeping all night, and I'll get enough rest so that I feel like my healing continues. We can't predict any of that stuff. And the idea that well, like, I can could do my best I can. And that is not separate from the whole rest of the world.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right? Yes, I think that's absolutely right. We can't predict any of that stuff. That's why I felt like it was really relevant to our conversation. It's not really like this is why this does not work. But this this piece, that we sometimes use"everyone's doing the best they can," in a way that feels almost like I'm bandying around a flag of virtuosity or morality. And that's where I feel like this is another part of the problem. It is not why it does not work, per se, but it is part of the challenge of this idea.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking, Can I throw something else at you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, I realized that I kind of went around in a little bit of a way. But I was thinking about what you were saying here.
Larissa Parson:No, that's perfect. I was. So like that phrase. I feel like, as a former English teacher, I really like paying attention to words. And I really like noticing the difference that one phrase can make versus another. And one of the phrases that like to bring parenting back into the mix, because for me, it is like, never ending a place to learn. Ross Greene has this phrase that I find to be really helpful. So Ross Greene is a an expert on working with kids who have lots of problems dealing with their stress and trauma responses, anxiety, OCD, that kind of thing. And what he says is kids do well when they can, and that is a real difference.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow. Yes, I like it.
Larissa Parson:Because that gives you space for the trauma, the stress response, all of that, and that people then we take that to adults, right? People do well, when they can. And kids in particular aren't trying. They're not like deliberately masterminding their manipulations of you. They're really not. They're doing as well as they can under whatever circumstances they're in. But the circumstances can certainly affect what they do and how they do it. And that's true of people. two adults, two kids are people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, well, I write, I like that. I like that idea. We've talked about this idea of caring for our body and ourselves as we would care for a child. And what I talked about with trauma survivors is if you were caring for a child in this way, you could also learn to care for yourself in a caring, loving, gentle way too. So like, why would we not extend that same thing to us kids: doing well when they can. Adults count too.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I think just to pick up on that, that, that thread of treating yourself the way that you would treat I like to Sorry, I'm going to backup that sentence and start over. So I think I got some of this from Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski on their podcast. And I think that or maybe in burnout, I like the idea that we can use self compassion that we can see ourselves as our younger selves. Like if we were imagining ourselves as a five year old and taking care of ourselves in that way, then we can kind of take that lens of, well, adults do well when they can. So it's really like, we don't have to go down that rabbit hole. But I think that it's a really useful way of framing self compassion and self care. Really.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And I totally don't want to go down this rabbit hole. But this is one of the challenges that I have with these two (the Nagoski sisters) is that they often throw stuff out there that feels completely inaccessible to trauma survivors. Because some trauma survivors were not cared for at five year old. And I say that as someone who has made the same mistake, assumed language or an idea was accessible to everyone. So I just want to bring that piece in that some language can be challenging for some trauma survivors. Not all of us not, not for me.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I think then the language of your best friend or your, your nibbling or something like that. Yes. Like some anybody who is like, just a little bit removed from yourself can be a really good place to go. Because then you can say, Well, I would never treat my friend that way. We say that a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, absolutely. Love that language. I wonder also what the idea of doing the best that you can brings up for you like what is it make you think of, Larissa? What comes up in your body? What do you feel?
Larissa Parson:The second you say that I'm like, gosh, I feel so resentful of that idea that I have to constantly be doing my best. Yeah, because I can't. And like the idea that we're all doing the best we can all the time supposes an infinite quantity of resources for doing the best we can.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, yes, yes. This infinite quantity of resources thing comes up for me and I want to circle back to that in a little bit. And I want to sort of grab on to that piece that you're saying about like this resentfulness piece because it feels a little perfectionist. Part of the challenge is the inference is "always,". You are always on hence, the resentment. That's horrible that you are expected to give 100% which then leaves room for nothing. It certainly doesn't leave any room for failing but also for like things that happen a broken some broken bones in your foot or surgery or just being tired. That's very absolute and that's problematic.
Larissa Parson:Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it's super problematic because it just doesn't leave space for life.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No, no. And this perfectionism piece gets me down another different area which also feels problematic so there's like so much here that we are unpacking together. But it feels a little bit like toxic positivity piece. I just wanted to start with a definition. This is from
Healthline media:"that's the idea of positive thinking as the only solution to problems and it demands that a person avoid negative thinking or expressing negative emotions. " But obviously like that's a problem right? Because there's so many problems with toxic positivity but this really makes me kind of wince. Miriam Greenspan who is the marriage and family therapist and author she talks about the idea of dark emotions. Dark not necessarily meaning"bad" but dark meaning sort of like as a place where there's things to learn from it to grow from, like a plant in soil. So dark emotions are things like grief, anger, fear and shame. you know, some of that like, stuff we'e encouraged to bypass in toxic positivity. It feels like "we're all doing the best we can," doesn't really allow space for my fear, or anger, guilt or resentment or whatever. And that's not okay because everything is not always okay. And that's okay.
Larissa Parson:Again, Well, okay, let me see if I can rephrase what I just heard from you so that I can make sure that we're all clear on that. So toxic positivity means that there's no space for having negative emotions. And we know that negative emotions are part of the human experience and that to understand joy, you can't, like you can't get there without having also experienced pain, physical, mental, emotional, anything. There's no way there's no way to know what that is. It'll just feel neutral. And so toxic positivity wants us to live in that space of like, it's all good. I'll just think my way to better everything. And then you said that, well, the thing we can think about to counteract that is that everything's not always okay, but just true. We just need to look around the world or even just get on your little phone and read Facebook. Everything is not always okay. And, and that's okay. And I think that is where the real beauty of thinking about what you were, what you were referring to as dark emotions comes in is that it's okay. that everything is not okay. It's okay that we have these feelings. It's okay, that that they may be sometimes Yes, are places where we can learn. And sometimes there are places where we can choose not to go to sometimes, or we can go there. But I don't know how to explain what I'm trying to say. If our stress response is to Netflix, it's okay to go there. And it's okay to say I'm doing this because I am feeling lonely. Yes. And I know that, yeah. That doesn't mean that you're not doing the best. Well, it does. It doesn't mean that Elizabeth does not mean you're not doing the best you can in that moment, or does it mean that you are doing the best you can
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's a tricky thing, right? And I and this is where I'm going to say something and I'm not going to really expand on it. But I think part of the part of what does work about this phrase is the idea that we can take it and use it as it works for us. So we can take this on and say like Brene Brown, "I have made the conscious decision in my life to go through life, and say, I'm going to see everyone doing the best they can. I'm going to do that. So I can stay out of judgment with people. " Right? And so we can then flip that upside, right and turn that back on us. So like I am doing the very best that I can in this moment. And it's not really great, or it's just sort of enough, or it's whatever, or I'm not and that's okay, too
Larissa Parson:I see that. That sounds good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I want to just just sort of draw out a little bit of what you said here, because I feel like I don't want that to get lost. I like how you put this in here. I think that this is a really important point. And this is way more your area than mine. But we cannot feel that joy or that pleasure unless we are feeling our other emotions, right? If we are dealing fear and shame and anger, we are dealing with all of it or it doesn't work. We can't Dult you know, just these, quote unquote bad guys over here, right? It doesn't work. And so I've spent a ton of time talking with survivors about this and certainly going through that in my own experience, you know in my own life, and saying"I'm just not going to deal with that right now," . So the idea that one must feel all of these things in order to really feel those high points of joy and pleasure and happiness and these other just sort of lovely things that we all kind of like want to bring more into is an important one. Yeah, just wanted to pull that piece out, because I don't want that to get lost. That's like really beautiful Larissa.
Larissa Parson:Thanks. I feel like it's super important. Yeah, it's, it's really essential. And I want to say, okay, we're gonna move on to the next thing in a second. But I want to say that sometimes that choice to like, go watch. Netflix is a choice to find a way to engage with those emotions. That is a little bit safer for you in that moment. So I think about like when I have a bad feelings, and let's talk about Ted Lasso, watch like an episode of Ted last Oh, that makes me cry. Guess what, I get to access those feelings. And I get to feel them. And sometimes I pause it and let myself cry and feel those feelings. And I'm like, Oh, that was so cathartic, and necessary, and I wasn't ready to do it by myself. Sometimes we get to use the tools that we need to use to get to those things.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Absolutely. And I say "use the tools, whatever those tools are!" I mean, besides some things that may be like maladaptive but Netflix or something else like these are all like solid tools. That is something that I feel like kind of get dissed in the world. Because it's like, "I'm just gonna watch Netflix sit there with your, you know, box of chocolates", you know, like it just really kind of gets a negative slant. But Yes, yes, yes! That's okay to do. and yeah chocolates are delicious. And sometimes the only way that a trauma survivor can access those tears is through watching something. So I would tell sometimes I would tell trauma survivors, I say, "go watch--this is totally dating me!-- go watch Terms of Endearment." Yeah. And that was sometimes really worked for people. Okay, so flipping this in a totally different direction, I want to talk a little bit about what changes, when we look at when we use a racial lens to look at the idea of everyone doing the best they can. Because basically, we all know, well, you and I, and whoever else is listening to this know that we are living under systems of oppression, right. And we are living under one specifically called white supremacy. That we need to remember that what holds true for me as a white person may not hold true for you, as a Black, biracial, bipoc person, you know, whoever is listening, whatever their racial identity is. So like, when we think about something like inherent bias, for example, it's an effect of racism that skews people's perceptions of individuals and situations, etc. We need to kind of think about this, like, as a white person, right, like, I might be more inclined to just be like, "everyone's doing the best they can," to that white person who harmed me, right? But wait a second. Do I have that same, "everyone's doing the best they can," to the Black person who did the exact same thing? You know, if the person is Black, might I need more inclined to cry foul, and demand accountability? And all we need to do is like, look at like, the numbers of people in incarceration and at our prison industrial complex, and look at the breakdown of races, to see that this is exactly like something that does show up in reality. I want to kind of pause right here and acknowledge that like, I am a white person having this conversation. But I want to just make sure that it's clear that like I have not solved, right, this idea of inherent bias. I grew up in a very white area, surrounded by very white people, I am talking about Connecticut, in the 1980s, in very wealthy areas. So as much as I work to be actively anti racist, I am not a perfect person. And I can likely never eliminate inherent bias in my own life. I'm wondering, Larissa, if you have a take on this that you want to share?
Larissa Parson:I mean, no one is free from the system of implicit or inherent bias. Like there is a lot of internalized white supremacy culture going on. For a lot of us. I can only speak for myself, in my own experience, really. And I feel like the thing that I heard and what you were saying that I wanted to pick up on a little bit is, first of all, when you mentioned the prison industrial complex, and the disproportionate numbers of who's incarcerated, I am thinking about how really, the whole criminal justice system is not doing its best. Right? It's set up to have us view everybody as not doing their best except for you. No, no, except for nobody. That is how the system works. It's supposed to work that we assume that people are doing their best but that's actually not how it works. I mean in theory you're innocent till proven guilty, bla bla bla bla bla, like, all of those those rights that we have, don't they assume that we're doing our best? Yep. That that's not how our system actually works. And then I feel like there was something else in there that I wanted to pick up on, but I got distracted by that one. So I think I'll leave it there. I think that's a good place to stop. Yeah, for me, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay. I want to because I feel like this is a whole big thing that we could go down and talk about for a really long time. But just in case do you have something else you want to add to that?
Larissa Parson:I totally remember the other thing, which is that which is like, you know, it's really interesting when you talk about this because I like the other thing that came up when you're talking about race, and implicit bias and kind of how how I'm thinking about how we engage with each other in conversation on these topics. Specifically, I am thinking about the places where so many white people are not doing the best they can and get called out on it like on a thread in a Facebook group, for example, something like that, where there are microaggressions, or where there are assumptions being made about the lives of black people. And folks will say, hey, you can do better than this. And or, you could take responsibility for this in a better way. So maybe you're doing the best you can right now. But now you know more. So you can do better. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yep. The other thing that just popped into my mind when I heard you talk about this?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Absolutely, absolutely. So I think where I want to kind of wrap this up is this idea of why "everyone doing the best they can," is problematic, because we need to really remember that not everyone is afforded the same privilege is given the same privilege in our society. In fact, it's really the opposite. Like we tend to disproportionately harm or punish people who are not like us, okay, in some way. And one way I feel like that can show up is an inherent bias So I feel like looking kind of broadly at this idea of everyone doing the best they can, right, and you just sort of catapulted us into this idea that the system is not doing the best they can, you know. I think that idea really ignores the systems that govern our lives, and manage a lot of the decisions that we are able to make, right, even though we would often rather, they didn't. But they do. So like, yes, there's white supremacy. But there's also systems like our government, right? This is like the legislative branch of our government that's making the laws, you know, things like that. And so this gets me into this idea where you and I've talked about this a lot. It's like, well, I'm really committed to this idea of like, I want to do my part and my family's part to end climate change and stopping my family's consumption of things like single use plastic, but we're only three in a population of 329 million. So to actually be effective, we need to do more, we the big We, need to do more than just my family saying, "I'm not going to purchase from that restaurant because they're using styrofoam in their takeout,". So we need larger sweeping changes, like outlawing styrofoam, or whatever the thing is. So "everyone doing the best they can," is also problematic because it just centers individuals and forgets that we are working within systems that we can't leave, or choose to leave or remove ourselves from.
Larissa Parson:Oh, my God. Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, no, you just basically said this, the system is not doing the best they can. But I wanted to just tease that bit of out a little bit more.
Larissa Parson:No, I think that teasing out that this centers individuals--I mean, this is this is what some of the cultural foundation that we are actually needing to counteract here that, that toxic individuality, this idea that we can all do it by ourselves that it's not a communal effort. That's why we have an emphasis between the two of us on talking about community, because it can't be something that you just like, do the best you can by yourself. There's no way. What if we all did, like a mediocre job moving in the right direction, we'd probably accomplish a lot more. Right? Yeah, yep. Especially if we do it together with intention and purpose and compassion for when we don't do our best. But we hold space for the idea and the vision that we are moving toward justice that we are moving toward climate abatement. I don't I don't think we can get away from change, but that we are managing it better, that we are living in a more sustainable way on so many levels.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, yep. So there's a piece that I really want to mention, but I have a few but it's not like a really pitch like not perfectly kind of worked out in my mind. And it's related. As we sort of start to wrap things up here. It's kind of a little bit related to the idea that to the way that Brene Brown talks a little bit about serial killers and terrorists and and this relates to the idea of "everyone doing the best that they can", and I want to just sort of pull one piece of this out because it's a little bit troubling for me. And this may also have been where I struggled with this idea of this in the context also in which she was talking about it. She "others" people in a way that's troubling. And so "othering" is a very odd word to see written, let alone spoken aloud. So it's basically this idea of removing people to a category outside of ourselves in a way that separates them as not like us. And in doing so treats them differently. So it's really problematic to "other" people, because it tends to pedestal us, right? And then we get in the sort of morality piece here. "we aren't the problem, those people over there are the problem", you know, and again, not again, but this does feel a little bit like supremacy culture, kind of an action here, it's like, "I am the superior one, not you all over here." But let's get a reality check in here. None of us is flawless. I feel the need to say that it's not just serial killers, and terrorists who are bad guys. Now, I don't want to like frighten people. But every day, people whose names are not in the newspaper are also doing bad things. And it's parents like Maria's mom. But it's also like a coach or a priest or a nun, or a co worker, or a boss, or like the person who's at the grocery store in front of you. And like, so bad guys are not this group over there, that they're there amongst us. And I don't say that because we need to get freaked out by that. But as a way to sort of say, none of us are flawless. And it's a problem when we put these people over here in a category by themselves. Because that's, that's wrong on a couple of levels. I'm going to stop there. Because this is really feels like this is one of these pieces that for me is is not as perfectly thought out or as articulated as I would like it to be. But it's still a problem piece for me. I'm going to pause right there and see if you want to say something that's not where I initially wrote in the pause, but just so you know.
Larissa Parson:Yep. I mean, I think that that is I think that's a really important point to bring up. In part because yes, I think the othering part of that is really key. Like, it's, it's how we separate ourselves from the bad guys. But also, I feel like it gives us this really, this idea that it's false, that there's a clear line between good and bad, and that there isn't kind of a spectrum of behavior. Thank you. Um, and then it dehumanizes. And as someone who, you know, again, I've had to deal with, like behavioral stuff from my kids, that is kind of intense. And I'm like, gosh, these serial killers and terrorists are also children of somebody, that some, a lot of them are parents of somebod. A lot of this, like, so we're all walking around. We can't just walk around and think well, I'm like, you don't know. You just don't know. Whether like, who in your life is going to be how. And I don't know how you can know, right? That's Right People, we can talk about right people and how we regularly can depend on our intuition and our judgment about right people, because there are really clear signs about that. But I mean, it just... the the way that we don't know, means we can't possibly separate ourselves so far. And the way that we can't tell who's doing their best, and who isn't all the time, or whether this is a when they can versus they can't. Yep. Like if we had a system that had more support for everyone, would we have fewer serial killers and terrorists? I don't know. But I would like to think so. I would like to think that the solution to crime is everybody having what they need.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah and that includes taking care of children early on. I mean I would bet my life on that from what I know about trauma and how it affects people. There are no serial killers and terrorists out there who are not traumatized as children. I'm sorry, they're just not. Not"I'm sorry," but the reality is there's not. That is an unequivocal thing. We know this to be like a thing. You know, so if we could get these early intervention programs for every family, not just the family that looks like they need it. But all of those families, right, and this is where I feel like Bruce Perry really shines because he looks a lot all kinds of different families in his work and says, "this is a very affluent, white privileged family in a suburb of Houston. And here's what they did to their kid and here's why he behaves this way." You know so it is not just like," I'm going to select these quote unquote,'vulnerable population's to get these services. No, no, it is everyone and everyone kind of gets the same thing." So yes, that's where I feel like I get a But this is like just pulling out two pieces because I don't little heated. want to get those lost. And they really, they complete my incomplete thought really nicely. They don't complete it, but they help the thought come through more clearly, which is this idea of othering as dehumanizing. And this piece of the spectrum of behavior, we cannot just ignore that. So thank you for those two, two bits. And I want to say I feel like here's where the rubber meets the road for me. I don't know about you, but if I'm being honest, I am not doing the best that I can. I'm just not always doing the best I can sometimes I am. Sometimes I'm not. I look the other way as a piece of garbage on the playground, because I'm like, "I can't I can't do that right now". I see the woman on the side of the street asking for money. I can't do it, I just gave to someone else. You know, the gas tank is empty. I'm like, "well, my husband's driving next he can do that. " Like, I am not doing the best that I can. And the absoluteness of it is really kind of where the crux of this comes to me. It is just impossible. Me - and this is exactly what we've talked about earlier - but me doing the best I can all the time would mean like a whole heck of a lot more stress a lot more work and a lot more yeses, right? It's a lot more yeses. It's more effort than I could manage with what I'm doing right now. It's less taking care of myself in a way that feels good, because I'm constantly trying to do the best that I can. You know, it's less about ability. Right? And it's more about priority. Like I can. I can't I don't feel like it right now. Or when I'm sick or when I'm tired. And that again, is totally okay.
Larissa Parson:I feel like there's a whole podcast in that sentence. Yeah. Right. Like, I feel like it's a whole episode on that. So maybe we shouldn't I won't I won't dive into that too much here because I feel like that is like a lot to talk about. Yeah, I just I feel like I want to pull out the thread of it's not. It's okay, that you're not doing your best all the time, actually. Yep. You know, it's okay. Because what are you doing? Like 80% of the time? 70% of the time? What are you doing when you're well resourced? What does it mean to be well resourced? But what what are you doing? What do you feel like basically, okay? not exhausted, not at the end of your tether, not triggered by something that you saw on the news, you know, like, Where? Where are the places where you can do well? And where are the places where you literally can't and, and can we be okay with that? I can't do that right now. I have not been doing my best either in the last six weeks, because I don't have the physical resources to do my best. And that is my best actually, is to like, do what I can, and that is my best. And it's not what my best looks like when I'm "healthy" quote. I'll put that in air quotes actually, when I'm "healthy for me," let's say yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I think I'll leave it there. So again, that's like that spectrum too. Right? Yep. So I just want to sort of sum up and do a little bit of covering where we were, we have been. You know this doing the best that we can is none of us are really doing the best that we can for these reasons that we've talked about. Like one not being able to control that trauma /stress response. Two: perfection, right? The implied "always" right? That's just not possible that is not humanly possible. You know, things like racism and not everyone coming to the table with the same amount of privilege including inherent biases, like that's another piece of it. So it's okay to say or believe that we're not doing the best that we can. Because also we cannot and should not ignore those six systems of oppression that are part of our lives. So to deny that is to deny our reality, our own humanity, I think. And that's a problem and it would be kind of like to embrace this idea of like toxic positivity like just grin and bear it. Right. "Carry on warrior!" "You got this Mama!". Oh, that language that I can't stand. Yeah. I can't even!"Everyone doing the best that they can," neglects our own humanity. That's just the bottom line. Yeah, we can't always be on. Bang.
Larissa Parson:Bang. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's all that is it? Yeah. Yeah. We don't need to be the best we can be all day every day because we can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No. And you know what -speaking of parenting since that has come up a couple of times- what I didn't even say here is like, "what does that mean? What am I teaching my kid?"
Larissa Parson:What am I doing to my kids? I'm always doing my best. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Don't screw up. Be perfect. Yep. I can't believe you spilled that on the floor. And a million other tiny paper cuts of your child, right? Yes. Yep. Yeah. So we don't want to raise people to feel that way either.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No, no, we don't. So that was a piece we didn't even get into. And there we go. There we go. So that's what I got.
Larissa Parson:Awesome. Wow, that was a lot. And I love thinking about all this stuff with you and hearing your take on it. And to make the transition completely awkward. Let's talk about what we're eating.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. Right, because that's a natural dovetail.
Larissa Parson:oh, I've got a transition for us, Elizabeth. You ready for it? Okay. Yes, I am. So one of the systems that we did not talk about is diet culture. Yeah. And diet culture expects us to do the best we can or better all of the time, when it comes to what we put in our bodies, and how we move our bodies and what our bodies look like. And let's not even get into the debates about what the best means for within the kind of diet wellness culture, that toxic stuff. We're not even going to get into that. So what we're going to focus on right now is what are we eating that makes us feel good. And that is delicious. And kind of gives the finger to diet culture.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow. Well, that's an absolutely fabulous transition. Thank you for all of that. Oh, my goodness. Yes, yes. times 1000. Do you want me to start off with what I'm eating? Or do you want to talk about what you're eating?
Larissa Parson:Why don't you go ahead first. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, so we are going to the beach tomorrow. Yes, so I am hoping to be eating some seafood. I say that and now my stomach growls. So that is what I am hoping that I am eating. I did that's like what's coming up in the next couple of days just for the weekend. What I was eating yesterday was absolutely fabulous. And it was something my dad had sent me who loves to cook. He sent me this recipe a while ago and I just did a little bit of a riff on it. It was eggplant with this tomato jam. And I'm like what?! He made it when we were in California visiting them, my siblings and my nieces in August. I'm like, this is so good. So I decided to kind of get that out and it was really nice. It was this sweet but it was also tomato-y which is not always a sweet and there's like some brown sugar in there. So it's a really nice tomato jam that kind of gets thickened as you're cooking it down with some tomatoes, apple cider vinegar, balsamic vinegar, and some brown sugar. And I use that as an accompaniment to my eggplant, which was grilled. I kind of like charred the top a little bit more with some really nice goat cheese. I can't remember the name of the goat cheese people and anyway it was local goat cheese people and had that with a side of like gemelli pasta. And it that was my dinner last night. And it was just absolutely delicious. I've got I still got some tomato jam leftover. So I'm going to have some tomato jam, probably for lunch. And also looking forward to eating some seafood.
Larissa Parson:That sounds so delicious. I'm just like, oh my gosh. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I don't know if I could actually top that. Not that I have to try to top it, because right? Right, fine. So I'm thinking about this. Like, I was thinking about this question. And I've been eating good stuff all week. But I want to go back to last week and talk about what I ate on Saturday.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, I was wondering, okay. So tell us about it.
Larissa Parson:So for folks who don't know me and haven't been intimately familiar with all of the details of my life over the last six weeks, I've been recovering from abdominal surgery, and I haven't been able to eat things with texture for I wasn't able to eat them for about four weeks. And so when I was able to open the possibilities of food up to more than mushy things with lots of dairy. I kind of was so delighted by everything I ate. And last weekend I went over to hang out with a vaccinated friend. And we had takeout from a Mediterranean place, and I had a gyro and it was just the perfect combination of texture like the crunchiness of the lettuce and the softness of the pita, and meatiness of the meat, that kind of umami quality and the chewyness of everything that the, the tanginess of the onions, like there's just an that little bit of tzaziki sauce like that. But all of that stuff put together was just this mouth delight, feeling the foodgasm you know. And I wanted to mention that because I feel like I will dive into that in much more detail on our next episode, I believe. So we'll talk some more about about why that is sticking with me as a food thing. But yeah, that's what I'm thinking about. And I'm looking forward to seeing what my CSA brings me today. Because there's always something sweet and always something savory and always a lot of texture. And so I'm looking forward to that. For sure. Oh,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Beautiful. That is...that's totally topped. That sounds fantastic. I love all of those bits. And I don't even really care for chicken, but I like the whole description of the whole meal. So delicious. And thank you for sharing that with us. And so thank you to everyone for listening. I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. And
Larissa Parson:I'm Larissa Parson You should sign up, you should go subscribe to us. However you listen to podcasts, share wonder buying with your friends. Write us a review so other people can find us. And feel free to reach out to us on Instagram. We're@Wonderminepodcast. And let us know what you thought of this episode. Let us know what you think about whether everyone is doing the best they can or whether maybe we just don't need to be all the time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Beautiful. Thanks, everyone.
Larissa Parson:Thank you
