Wondermine
Wondermine
Episode 4: Play and Curiosity
In this episode, Larissa & Elizabeth discuss what play and getting curious have to do with liberation. If we could sum up this episode in one sentence: How we create a better world is by creating opportunities for people to play together, and to enjoy being together.
Stuff we mentioned:
Honorée Fanonne Jeffers' book, ‘The love songs of WEB DuBois’
'Cloud cuckoo land’ by Anthony Doerr.
Stuart Brown TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_brown_play_is_more_than_just_fun/transcript?language=en#t-758879
Summary of Brown’s work by Larry Maguire-- Larissa found this while googling for a list of the properties and it’s just very concise.
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
We mentioned, but did not quote, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s work on flow.
Dianne Bondy & Amber Karnes, Yoga for All
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a parent and partner. I'm a rape survivor and a writer. I talk and write about trauma, relationships and culture. And I am a big fan of rescue dogs.
Larissa Parson:Oh, rescue dogs. I love that. I'm Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coach, a movement teacher, a mom to twins, a bit of a hippie and a dabbler in many hobbies. And we are the duo behind this limited series podcast called Wondermine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wondermine is the limited series feminist podcast that looks at the "wow" and the "how" of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, this is the podcast for you.
Larissa Parson:And this is our fourth episode. We are going to be talking today about play and curiosity - and what the heck they have to do with liberation. But first, I want to get us in the right headspace for a conversation. So I was thinking about how to run this little exercise this week. And for some reason, I thought about that old Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory movie with Gene Wilder. And there's this scene where Charlie and his grandfather have been so diligent to follow instructions all the way through the factory tour. They're like almost at the end. And then they drink the bubbly drink. And they go floating up into the air. And they're just full of bubbles. And it's just like, really delightful feeling that they have. And they eventually have to escape. But we're not going to focus on that we're focusing on the feeling of being effervescent. So I'd like you to imagine for a second that you are like a bubble or that you are like one of those characters just floating around in the air. So what does it feel like to lose touch with the ground? Maybe it's a little scary. Maybe it's really exciting. If it feels like too much, then imagine that your feet are steady on the ground, and that your arm is the bubble floating around in the air. And you can just imagine it drifting up with ease and floating around like a bubble. Or if you're in a place where you can do that you can wave your arm in the air like a bubble if that feels good. And then let yourself slowly come down to rest on the earth again. How'd that feel Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That felt fantastic. I love that movie. And I've always wanted to drink those fizzy lifting drinks. And I totally love that it felt loose and free but not out of control. Not not like I was gonna hit a breeze and drift away. So grounded but also loose.
Larissa Parson:I love that. Oh, good. I'm so glad that worked for you. Yeah, I wanted to start us off with a kind of playful, silly exercise like that. Because sometimes it's hard to step into that mindset of wonder. And, you know, feeling it in our bodies a little bit - getting in touch with that bubbly effervescence, without too much loss of control is maybe a good place to start. Of course, one of my other favorite ways to step into a mindset of wonder is through books. So what do you mean this week Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So I am finishing up-- I've got 150 pages left to go Honoree Fannon Jeffers' book, _The love songs of WEB DuBois_. And it is just cresting together in this really magnificent way. There's magic in this book--or maybe the mirror image, a spiritual or a religious element. I'm seeing it as magic but I'm not sure if that's how its intended. There's just pieces that I have gone back and read a few times. I mentioned this last week when we're talking about your right people. But this book is about 750 pages. It's really huge. So it's taking me a while to slog through, but it's slog through meaning it's a wonderful, brilliant read on every possible level, like at a technical level and on a storytelling level. And the way all of these pieces are coming together and I feel very strongly about all of the characters I've encountered. There's just there's a lot to say here and I'm just loving it. I will be sad when it's done, honestly. It's beautiful.
Larissa Parson:I love it when I have a book going, that I'm anticipating the sadness of being done. That's a really good feeling with a book. So okay, let's move it up the list of Move it more towards the front of the list, the top of the things to read. list. The sad thing is, is that I currently have like three different very long books out from the library on my Kindle right now. And so it will be a while. It might be December when I get to it - maybe January.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We'll see. Okay. Okay. What about you? Can you tell us a little bit about what you're reading?
Larissa Parson:Sure, sure. I'm reading cloud cuckoo land by Anthony Doerr. And, you know, every few months, I read something by a cis het white guy- not all the time. It's not very often. And something that our listeners might not know is that I studied classics for many years. And Cloud Cuckoo Land, the title of the book comes from Aristophanes play 'The Birds', the the Greek comedian, comic writer. And then it also comes from these fragments of Antonius Diogenes 'Wonders Beyond Thule'. And Doerr actually makes up a lot of the content of that latter text because we don't have a lot of fragments. But anyway, so it's like, rooted in these classical texts. And it's this multi layered story. And I'm totally enjoying it. He's braiding together a bunch of different timelines and settings, into what he describes as a literary sci fi mystery young adult historical morality novel.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow.
Larissa Parson:It's huge. Yeah. So it's a lot of fun. There are multiple timelines. Set, I was gonna say, I don't know if they're all set in Istanbul. There are two separate characters who are setting the same timeline in Constantinople. But then there's a girl in space. It's all over the place. It's really, really, really good. And I'm really enjoying it. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Nice. That's great. I like that. I'd like how you tied the idea--because we always start off with "what are we reading?" and then we finish with "what are we eating?"-- but I like that you brought us to the "what are we reading?" part with this idea of as you know, this, this could tie into our, it's a form of play, right? And as someone who is happily having you lead this conversation, because this is not my forte, I'm thrilled to think of reading as a form of play, because I'm a big reader. And I know, we wanted to do this episode about play and curiosity back when we were thinking about what we're going to put on the podcast. And we kept coming back to curiosity. And the noticing over the judging, especially as one of these ways that we step towards, like this liberatory mindset and away from the judging, or as we've talked about before, like the commanding or these, these sort of social constructs or whatever these pieces are, that we need to kind of, that we're "supposed to" stick to as we move through life. So I love play as liberatory practice. So start us there, Larissa
Larissa Parson:Okay, so I, I feel like with this topic, we're gonna get to the liberatory practice. It's probably going to drop in here and there throughout our conversation, but we're really gonna get to it at the end, because I think we need to set up a few basic parameters around it. So about curiosity. When I started thinking about curiosity as a starting point for working with people's bodies, a lot shifted for me, and the way that I thought about working with people and the way that I thought about bodies. Play has been kind of central to my outlook on life probably since I was in grad school. I wrote a paper on humor in Plato. And the Greeks and the Romans have just filthy senses of humor, which I've appreciated really, since my Latin classes in high school, honestly. So there's a lot of play in ancient texts. And, like, again, just to pause and note that that doesn't mean that there weren't problems with the ancient world. But there's a lot of humor and play there. So I feel like it's kind of hilarious that the book that I'm reading this week lines up so well with this topic, because it's all based on this comedy.... So there are two paths that we're going to walk down this week. One is play and why human adults need to do it. Like, why do human adults need to do this? What--isn't that something that kids do? And then the other one is curiosity, which is less of an action and more of an attitude in my book. I feel like that's really like, how do we approach things is with curiosity, which implies a little playfulness. So let's start there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right. Great. I love that. Okay, so then it sounds like we're starting with play. So let's go there.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Great. So Elizabeth, I have a really personal question to ask you. When is the last time you felt like you were playing?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Well, honestly, normally, I would say reading now that I know that I can chalk that into that category. And you've given me that permission. But I would say it was this morning. And I've been really thinking about this a lot this week. But my daughter is very big into like, tickle fights, with boundaries, and things like that. But we like to play a couple of like tickly games, right? I do something with her neck, and I pretend there's like a cricket in her neck. And I'm trying to like tickle her and get the cricket out, we make cricket-y sounds and it becomes just hilarious. And super fun. We lose track of time, I kind of need to, like rein us in. So that is the play that I have been doing, most recently, inside reading,
Larissa Parson:I love so like, I love tickling as a form of play, as you say, with boundaries, when it like that's when it's really play and not like a power situation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right.
Larissa Parson:So like, I love that, like my one of my kids really loves to be tickled. And it's such a good place to play with boundaries, and with saying no, and with saying yes and like, all of these things that we really want people to be able to do. And it's such a great way for kids to develop that. And also for adults to practice listening to other people's boundaries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Especially kids.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, especially kids' boundaries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's yeah, crucial. That's hard for adults to do. Because so often we're in that place of wanting to control kids bodies for some--not necessary for one reason- but in many capacities.
Larissa Parson:And frequently arbitrary reasons. Like, I mean, like, who needs to control a kid's body with tickling? Like, really? Let's stop and think about that for a second. So to go back to the moment of play, you said you lost track of time. And how did it feel in your body? Like, what does that experience feel like?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Always a good kind of hard question for me. Um, so I think probably pretty loose, and kind of relaxed.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Maybe there's like a sense of like, when it's tickling kind of sometimes there's like a sense of coil, like you're almost like coiling out to kind of get someone's little tickly tickly spot. But I think very...well very free really.
Larissa Parson:Oh, I love that. I love that. So that is totally what we want to feel when we're playing. We want to feel that looseness, maybe that little bit of anticipation of that that coil that you described and that sense of freedom. So I feel like this was I wanted to start there. Because I want to tie it into what does it feel like for you and other people can think about what it feels like for them. Because playing can feel different to all of us. The words that we use for play might feel different to all of us, especially depending on the kind of play that we're doing. Is it physical play with your body like tickling? Or is it more intellectual play, like having a great conversation? So I think there are some basic principles that we can kind of discuss around play. So in order to really start off my thinking about this episode, I consulted a play expert, who is my 10 year old son, Nick. And here's what he said, "playing is something you do that's fun. It's not something that you have to do. When you're forced into it. It's not fun anymore. It's more fun with your friends." So it's the right people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's exactly what I'm hearing.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. and then I asked him about how to start playing and get this. He said,"sometimes you have to get kind of bored first." Sometimes you have to get bored before you can start playing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I have so many thoughts on that. Yeah, sometimes you have to get bored, right. And I think that like so many things like, we don't often allow kids the space to get bored, because sometimes their days are really structured. And the same for us, right? We often don't have space to get bored in our days. And/or from a trauma survivor perspective, it can feel really scary to have downtime with hours, or even minutes in front of you, that are unstructured, and that can kind of feel unsafe. So the idea of "sometimes we have to get bored first," is just so interesting. But I can see that would lead us to like some really simple places. Like I think about, I think about the tickle game that I do with my daughter like that sometimes we just had kind of came up with it when we were just sort of playing around and talking about things. Or ideas of like, you're just walking around, and then you jump in a pile of leaves, you know. Or something like, I mean, even a simple game of like, tag outside, right? Like you're bored, so let's just chase each other and see who can like, who gets caught? And what happens then.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I totally love that. I've watched my other son, when he was much smaller... He still does this. He calls it"thinking" now, where he just runs around kind of like playing in his head. But when he was, when he was like two or three, we were on a really long road trip. And we didn't have a screen for them. They didn't have screens on this whole road And to come back kind of around in a circular way to the idea of trip. And that was hard. But he took his hands and started safety. And what does it mean to feel okay to play? I think one having battles with his hands in the air. And there was this of the things that I observe a lot, and this is this is kind of sense of just sinking into the boredom and seeing what your a kid heavy episode, y'all, because we're both raising kids brain comes up with that is so so good. at the moment and see a lot of this in action. But I think we can apply this also to kind of adult situations of play. And we just have to think a little bit more creatively about it sometimes. With kids, you know, there's a lot of questions of what is what kind of play is okay? What's too dangerous. And then it's their job to do that and figure that out and test those boundaries and test the edges of what's too much. And what's, what's enough. It's where they work out what the rules are, they learn how to negotiate with other people, how to step into another persona, so they get to try on other selves and other ways of being. And, like, I was watching my kids play yesterday with their teenage babysitter, which is like, really loud, and really aggressive. Just started stepping into these like commanding persona, and they're just yelling at each other and brandishing weapons and whacking each other with wooden swords and all kinds of stuff like this. Right? And every time I would check in with them, Are you guys okay? Everyone's fine. They're fine. They're having a blast. And when I was driving heir sitter home, I was like, o is that okay? Were you guys kay? And he's like, oh, yeah, hey're fine. This is normal, hich I love. But, you know, hey had a little bubble of afety with each other, where hey all trust each other, and here they all understand each ther's "no", very clearly. And artly because my kids are twins nd spent a lot of time egotiating that all the time. nd then because sitter is old nough, and has also a whole ile of brothers, that he's been egotiating this with his whole ife, you know, he's there, they ere able to create that space here like, I could hear omebody say, "No, that hurts too much," or whatever. And the would stop. It was great. So t come around to kind of like defining play a little bit more
Elizabeth M. Johnson:...which we love. Delightful. instead of just giving you al anecdotes about my childre Because it's so different than how my own child plays.
Larissa Parson:Ah.....
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's really interesting to me. You know, like, there's she will, she organizes her American Girl dolls and she creates worlds for them. And she's building...she did the whole calendar for them and what's on the calendar? Oh, it's a lot of tests and doctors appointments and I'm like"whaat?!" But my mother who was a teacher said play is a way for kids understanding how things work in the world. And what is, as you said, these rules. And so it's very, it's really interesting to hear the difference between because your kids are not very different than my child in age, right? They're not that different in age. So the difference is really fascinating too.
Larissa Parson:I mean, but I will tell you that my kids right now are making digital costumes for their digital characters in their minecraft game. So you know, it's not that different. It just takes a different form and a different kind of like, yes, a different, it's a different picture. In a way, yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It is a different picture, right? Because my kid would get out some fabric and probably try to piece something together. And yours are creating them for their characters in the game, or the other thing. Yeah.
Larissa Parson:yeah. I mean, one of my kids will also get out fabric, and he spent a whole week just cutting stuff up and dressing up his stuffed animals. So you know, like, kids play, got a little bored, didn't have a game he wanted to play, cut stuff up, again. And there's the game, there's the thing. So when we start talking about play, and adults, there is one of the folks who gets cited most frequently, when it comes to play is this another white guy named Dr. Stuart Brown. And this is like the white guy episode apparently, of our podcast, I don't know why it just is. So Stuart Brown really focuses on ow adults lose sight of the act that play is so important, ot just for kids, but also for dults. He talks about how play s where creativity comes out, ecause it doesn't have onsequences. In the same way hat you know, just deciding ou're going to drive off the oad might have, you can drive ff the road in Fortnite--actuall, there is no road in Fortnite- you can you can do that. And here are fewer consequences. An so he, he also kind of has t is list of seven properties of lay. And I didn't look at them ntil after I talked to Nick. So I think that's kind of important. Because it's ike, his qualities of play are ery much like what my kid said One of the first things I'l say is that he has a TED talk And he says one of the thin s about play is that it is"born by curiosity and explorati n," which again, is going rig t back to the way you have to b a little bored. First, you ha e to be a little bored. Yeah And that statement accompanies- in the TED Talk--that accompanie a slide of this kid, like pulli g aside his mother's skirt. And then he talks about ho this kid's curious about anato y, and gets a big laugh from t e audience. And I'm like, do I w nt to bring this source into t is podcast? it because i's a really problematic image, the talk, the TED talk is from h, gosh, it's easily 10 years ld. You know, it's from a while t maybe maybe five or six years ld? I can't I honestly can't remember what year it is. Bu you know, so it's a while ag, and I don't think that that kind of image would have would be okay, now. So there's no p rfect text or source when we re starting to talk about. Anyt ing. Really, I think it's im ortant to keep that in mind, no just for this topic, but for ev rything. And I think that ties into something that Elizabeth an I have talked about quite a bit which is that nobody's doing their best all the t
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And so stay tuned on that one.(laughter)
Larissa Parson:But anyway, I love that quote, because I feel like really going back to curiosity and exploration and thinking about, like, the ideas that he's got in his talk, and in other places, are really fantastic ways of coming to an intellectual understanding of something that we mostly feel in our bodies. So the seven properties that he describes are these and I pulled this list from another white guy, Larry McGuire, who just wrote up this beautiful list of qualities on his own website. And I was like, Oh, well, that's really nice. I don't have to go read this book in two days. It's cool. So here are these qualities. There is"apparent purposelessness." So what is the point of tickling? What's the purpose? Who pays you to tickle somebody? Okay. There may be somebody who gets paid for tickling people, but it's kind of purposeless, right. And I would say my kids definitely feel purposeful about their playing. But to an outside observer, a game of tag has no purpose. There's their purpose is probably to have fun to be someone else to explore power, but they're not going to articulate that they're just going to be like, No, we're just having fun. That's it. It's voluntary. So Nick said this, you have to want to do it. You can't be forced into playing. It has an"inherent attraction" and that it makes us feel good. If you're not having fun, it's not playing. If you don't feel good about it, it's not playing. And that also comes up later too, like if you, if you're not, if someone's not having fun, then it's not a game. If there are a bunch of people playing together. And also, play gives us "freedom from time." So you were saying, Elizabeth, that you felt like you lost track of time, you didn't have a good sense of that. And that losing track of time is really kind of bucketing into a flow state. And we're are we're not going to dive into Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's work right now. But you can if you want to on your own. But that feeling that you're not watching the clock, but you're so involved in what you're doing that you just like, You have no idea how it got to be an hour later. That is what we're talking about. And then a "diminished self consciousness." So Elizabeth, again, to go back to how you were describing the tickling, you felt free, that you weren't thinking about, well, oh, my hair is getting mussed from this tickling or anything like that. You're not thinking about how you're being perceived in that moment. I mean, maybe you're thinking about how you're, if you're doing a roleplay, how your character is being perceived, or how your character is acting, but it's not a self conscious thing. It has improv, improvisational potential. So it has the idea that you can make stuff up. Like my kids, when they make movies. They don't write a script. They have a general outline that they talk about. But nobody writes a script for it. They're just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, my character says this, I do this. They just start playing with it. And then there's a "continuation desire," you want to keep going, it's hard to stop. That's me. A lot of the time playing Animal Crossing. So that's it. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So there's like a couple of things that I'm thinking about. And one is that, aside from the Animal Crossing example, it feels like play is often something we are doing and or could be doing with our right people.
Larissa Parson:Yes, right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:There's a lot of these pieces--whether it's the continuation desire, or the improv potential, or the freedom of time, -- like when I think about all or any of the times that I've played in some capacity, it's all of these. Well, not all of them at the same exact same time, but we're hitting a lot of those points. I'm hitting a lot of those points in the play that I am engaged in.
Larissa Parson:yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:But when I think up to about like, "I don't want to stop doing it", or "I don't want to stop that moment." It's like, we just don't want to get in the car and leave that conversation with one of our right people, even though it's dark and cold. And...
Larissa Parson:we're getting tired. Exactly, exactly. So
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I love this. And I want to --and I'm also thinking about that piece where you talked about Stuart
Larissa Parson:Brown
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, he says something about, like,"it's a place where we don't have consequences". You know, it's a place that was that right?
Larissa Parson:I might have said that. Okay. But yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay, so that's like a bit, also a very interesting place. So I want to hear a little bit more about like, how do we as adults, play more? Now I feel like I'm getting a sense as to why this matters, why this is important, kind of what the qualities are of play. How do we do it more, Larissa?
Larissa Parson:I feel like this goes back to joy. Joy drops, like little tiny things. So it might not be saying I'm going to join a board game club. Because that feels like a to-do list item, you know, unless you really, really enjoy them. And I really enjoy board games. So I have friends that I play board games with when I can, because I really like winning board games. And it's, it's, then it's fun. But that doesn't mean everybody needs to do that. It's really more about noticing, oh, this is fun, and doing more of the fun thing. So like, when do I get that sense of timelessness? When do I get that sense of just this pur- apparent purposelessness. You know that that sense? I'm just doing this thing and it's feels good and it can be with somebody or with other folks. I'll say...did you have a question?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No, I'm just thinking that it's interesting to me as I'm hearing you speak that once again, we're in this place of, including more things in a definition of an idea than I would have thought would be in there. It's not that I walked into this conversation thinking that you're going to talk about board games or kickball. But I'm thinking, "oh my gosh, one of the things that I love is these cake and coffee afternoons twice a year, and having all these people come into our home. I baked a ton of different cakes, and it was really beautiful. Like, I loved doing it, and you lost track of time doing it. And it's with a bunch of people that you know, would love to eat those foods and maybe share the tradition of like a kaffe und kuchen (coffee and cake) which is like a family tradition. So, so many pieces of this. And I would say like as the trauma survivor person who--and we can talk more about this--but it may feel a little bit abstract the idea of play or just really except again, inaccessible. The idea that you're saying is just "noticing what the thing is that feels fun, and then doing more of it when you can" feels really is like really attractive. It feels really possible.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yeah. So I completely agree with you there. And one of the really cool things that Stuart Brown says in this, you know, occasionally problematic TED talk is this brilliant bit. This brilliant couple sentences here. He says, toward the end, he says, "I would encourage you all to engage, not in the work/play differential, where you set aside time to play, but where your life becomes infused, minute by minute, hour by hour with body objects, social fantasy transformational kinds of play," side note, those are kinds of play, he talks about in the talk. "And I think you'll have a better and more empowered life." And I think that that, that is a description of what happens when you start noticing, oh, this is fun. This is pleasant, let me have more of that. And sometimes it's just as simple as noticing, or recognizing this is how I do play. This is how I do creativity. And it doesn't have to look like somebody else's kind of play. In other conversations around play with Nick before, I've said, you know, sometimes adults play by talking. So that's what you were alluding to earlier, Elizabeth, where it's like, well, I don't want to go home, I want to keep talking. And it's cold, and it's dark, and I gotta pee, and all of those things, and you don't want to stop because we're playing where there's a back and forth around ideas, this thing leads to that thing, and it feels really buzzy and effervescent, and light. And so that that's, that's how we have a play-infused life is saying, Oh, that was play, too. That was pleasure, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. So I like also that he's saying, to not dwell on "this is my time to play and this is my time to work," like that work/play differential that he's talking about. Right? Like, I like that idea because it feels akin to the work/life balance formula that feels impossible and fraught, and how can we ever get there, right? That feels impossible, you know, given how we live and the expectations that we have on us on a regular basis. But more so then: how can we infuse the joy drops in on a regular basis, as opposed to setting aside 45 minutes to play kickball or run around the block? Or do a board game one time a week? Or you know, do the thing that's almost like checking off the box?
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So I like that a lot. This is all like, this is starting to make a lot more sense to me. And I want to hear a little bit -- because I've alluded to it because it's always like right there in the back of my mind--but what about people who have like a harder time accessing play? Because I'm thinking about those properties of like purposelessness and voluntary and attraction, like even like the flow idea that could feel really hard for folks who are trauma survivors. Maybe they're on like a super high alert. Maybe the unstructured time feels really, really hard and scary for them. Or even people who have challenges relaxing into a moment, right? I know you have seen that from groups that you have led the people who just are kind of like not quite able to sink in because it's a new thing for them or whatever. And it's a new thing for them and or maybe it was just dangerous for them to kind of let down their guard in that way. And so like what about those folks? What about those people? How do we how do we make it more accessible for them?
Larissa Parson:I feel like in some ways, there's a little bit of a, maybe a mindset shift that we have to make, like we were just saying that it infuses your day to day. It's a joy drop, i doesn't have to be set aside Maybe for some people creating set aside time is a great plac to start, though, because I ca do that safely, right
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow. Yeah. So structure around th
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. This is so fascinating! For some of us who feel really, you know, safe in our space, are not in crisis, don't have that more of like, a fresher trauma that they're kind of trying to manage on a regular basis, then this idea of joy drops during the day and accessing those might be more of the plan. But for those who are really struggling with the unstructured time, the idea of building it (play) in a really safe, structured way, would feel would probably feel really good for them. I love that.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. So you could say, what's the thing that you notice? You could start by noticing what's the thing that I noticed it feels fun. Okay, I want to have more of that. But I'm also a little bit hesitant about unstructured time and just say, well, this, I'm going to see what happens. So the maybe you schedule, I'm going to do 30 seconds of hula hooping. 30 seconds, do I love this? or the low bar, you know, low, low low bar, we don't need to have sky high expectations of ourselves. We're not 10 year olds. Our job isn't to play all the time. But we can infuse more playfulness into our day by taking a little moment saying, Okay, I'm going to let myself do whatever I want to do right now. The most important thing about play is that it happens when we feel safe. And when we feel like we have a choice. So setting up conditions that allow for the spontaneity to arise, but then also feel safe is going to be a good place to start. And seeking out one of your right people can also be a good place to start. I want to play more... I'm not sure. But I think I might like hula hooping? Do you want to take this hula hoop class with me? That might be a big commitment. Or it could just be like, I want to play more, will you order my coffee for me with whatever you think I would like in it? You know, like, I want to play with like, being a little spontaneous and walking on an edge a little bit for myself instead of having this complete sense of control. But also knowing that your right person isn't going to order a coffee for you that you're going to hate.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Wow. Yes.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I would. Because again, there's this level of trust between the right people that you're ceding that to someone who is a safe, trusted person. So you inherently know that they're not going to let you down.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, I would trust you to pick a coffee for me. I would trust a few other people that I get coffee with regularly to pick a coffee for me. Some of my people, I probably would not say they're going to be my coffee people. They're going to be my like, what, "what card games do we play tonight?" People? And that's fine. Yeah, we all have different ways. So we just like get that nice, safe feeling. And then we can open up within that container.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I love that. Okay, so help us get to the idea, help us transition to curiosity now.
Larissa Parson:So like I said, noticing that you're having a bodily experience of fun, and experience of joy of timelessness and not wanting to stop? That is kind of like this first step toward realizing that we could have pleasure and joy throughout our lives throughout our days through these moments. But the first step of noticing is getting curious. So last week, when we were talking about your right people, we talked about how there's a difference between a command and an invitation. And I gave the example of telling my clients to bring their pelvis into a neutral position all day, versus asking them to notice where their pelvis prefers to hang out periodically. So getting curious means looking at things from that Invitational point of view, as opposed to a super directive point of view. It allows us to say no, when we need to because we're curious about how we feel. So if I were to say, Elizabeth, we're going to go walking on Tuesday, and we're going to have Earl Grey tea on our walk, and we're also going to go walking in the dark in the woods. You would say? That sounds terrible.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I thought you're one of my coffee people, Larissa!
Larissa Parson:coffee people. So that doesn't sound fun. But if I said, Hey, Elizabeth, do you want to try? This, this this, maybe it wouldn't be all of those things at once. That seems like an awful lot really? It Right. But we're getting curious about it instead of knowing, like, I know that you would have a hard no if I said let's do all of these things. But if I said, you know, I heard about this really cool group lake hike, where we take flashlights and walk in the dark or something like that. You would, you would either say that sounds interesting, or no, that doesn't sound like the right thing for me. But we're coming at it with curiosity, not a demand. Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And one of the key pieces that I would be responding with is how the question is. I mean, there's the information, but it's also how this is phrased to me. Is it a command? Or is it an invitation? And I love that.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot like, I think
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. for that there's a lot of other examples where we think about adults playing and different ways that we can choose to play with each other. Like, there's a real difference between saying to someone, we're going to go play soccer on Saturday, all of us whoever it is, versus Hey, do you wanna? Do you want to play soccer? Do you like soccer? Do you even like, I don't like soccer. I would hate that invitation. I'd be like, No, thanks. I'm excited to drink my coffee and sitting down. Thank you very much. That's yeah. But it's all about the phrasing. Yeah. The invitation piece also feels personal.
Larissa Parson:Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It feels like you're speaking to me instead of the group.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And that's a piece that I think is a crucial bit in order for buy in.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So what does this look like? You mentioned the piece about noticing where your pelvis is, but what does this look like kind of in your own work? Aside from that, how does this show up?
Larissa Parson:So I mean, when we're talking about my work, with people moving their bodies, one of the things I've started doing all the time is inviting, using the word invitation a lot, and inviting people to notice and get curious about how their bodies respond to positional cues. So if I say, shift your weight into your heels in a squat, what do you notice is happening in your body? Like I might have an ulterior motive with that. But I want people to notice for themselves and be curious about it, instead of coming at it with "I'm supposed to be feeling this thing in this part at this time." And then I can say later, well, what did you notice? Oh, that's interesting. What if you try it this way. And then we can play with curiosity, instead of trying to fit fit fit our bodies into this one particular position to get this exact right thing. And then I also really like and this is influenced by the work of Dianne Bondy and Amber Karnes, to say, in a group class, especially, let's just take a minute and play with doing whatever your body wants to do right now. And I call it play, like, play with this play with, oh, let's get in this position and play with what does your body want to do in this lunge? What does your body want to do sitting in the chair or lying on the floor? Do you want to roll around? Do you want to take a big stretch? Do you want to curl into a ball? All of those things are options, you have choice, you have safety, you have a sense of, "I get to do this for as long as I want to." And it's an invitation, you could just be there and do nothing. So ask them what feels good. I think as adults, we don't get asked enough. What do I feel good doing right now? And not what should I do? Right now? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:No, we don't. I feel like everyone listening would agree with me on that. Because really, I mean, at what point are we really even told --except perhaps, but by someone like you or I, or others who were doing this kind of, in some way, this sort of like liberatory work, which feels like really big and I feel a little bit silly saying that--but this idea that you are the expert of your own life, of your own feelings, of your own body. And giving someone that kind of trust and control is a really big deal. And that is not something that comes from people who are in greater positions of power than us easily. They're not going to cede that to us very easily. Because when they are the one in position of power and acting on that position of power, we are more easily controlled. So I think maybe we could get into this curiosity and liberation place here.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And help us get towards like how that's connected because I think I see where a little bit where you're going.
Larissa Parson:I completely agree. So yeah, like when I say take a minute and play, I am saying notice that you have your own power and that you are you have agency and that yes control. And if you can have control in this moment, and if you can have agency and power in this moment, you can also have that in other parts of your life. And as someone who has spent a lot of time making that connection for myself, it is a really big, hard thing to do to take that agency on. And if we start in these small, accessible, sometimes very boundaried ways, yeah, then we get to open up to the idea of a whole bunch of possibilities. Yeah. And I think this leads me back to thinking about Adrienne Marie Brown, talking about how pleasure is a measure of freedom. And when we get curious and let ourselves step into a little bit more play, then we get to discern where the pleasure is. Where is pleasure for us? And then how do I get more of that, because that's the way to freedom. And then when we start stepping toward, like literally stepping, we start stepping toward pleasure a little bit more, we start stepping into play a little bit more, then we're actively cultivating joy. And, and then that joy, when we have a life with joy in it when we have a life with play with pleasure, with delight with curiosity, even when things really are awful. So even if you got no sleep and your car broke down, and your kid is screaming, and and now you got a terrible phone call, let's just throw all those things in there. Even in those moments, if you have this felt sense that they're, that your life is not only these moments, and that other people's lives don't need to only be these moments, then we have a little bit more capacity to start co creating a more just world. But I think we really don't expand that capacity if we're only focusing on all of the hard things. Yeah, we have to have pleasure, we have to have joy, we have to take time to let loose and get creative because that's where good solutions come from. And then one more thing that I was thinking about is that play, like we've kind of been alluding to this this whole time, but play is about connection. A lot of the time, we can do a lot of solo play. I can play Animal Crossing all day. But part of what makes it really fun for me is chatting with my friends, or getting on Reddit and reading about what other people are doing. It's still a way to build community and to connect with other humans. And that kind of connection is so essential to liberation. Like we can't have it without connection, without community, and without that creative. I'm gesturing wildly in the air. Yes. That creative verve that play and pleasure give us. And now I'm gonna take a break. Okay, yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I love that. There's so many pieces here that feel really powerful. But this idea of like, when we're actively stepping into play, we're cultivating joy.
Larissa Parson:Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And that's everything, right? That's And so that feels really powerful in a community, that's solidarity. That's affirmation, that's world where things can feel really small and hard and that safety. So this (play) is a ath to safety for some of us too like we are stomped on a lot, and that there's no space for which I think that I/we wouldn't necessarily have t our joy. And what I'm hearing is- what we've been hearing ought of otherwise bef re this conversation. Thank you o much. I lo throughout, really our theme here -- is that there's absolutely space for joy, that joy is really essential, and play is a vehicle to get us there. And then we are also in this place where we can engage with others and build community--ideally, with some of our right people--they are then on that path with us.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. Thank you, Elizabeth. That's a really nice summary of a lot of words. A lot of words that I just spewed out and thinking about this and I just I feel like I want to as we start wrapping up I keep thinking about some of the times when I've seen adults come together and play. You can think about watching people doing contact improv or things like that. But I also, just for some reason, it's on my mind to share about the way that my old neighborhood Burch Avenue, here in Durham Does, does stuff in general, but Halloween in particular, it is a real community situation. There's a potluck in the park. So there's food and community and gathering. And then there's this kind of playfulness of celebrating kids running around in costumes. And everybody comes out and greets each other and talks to each other. And it's this real playful moment of connection. There's a scavenger hunt, people decorate their yards with whatever they they've got around, decorate with. Some people go all out, I may possibly have been one of those people at some point in time, which will probably be not surprising to you at all, a big surprise.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Leading the pack over there on Burch Ave.
Larissa Parson:I don't know, there are people who have even better decorations. But you know, just kind of getting that sense of this is how we we create a better world is by creating opportunities for people to play together. And to enjoy being together.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to remember that, to write that down to use in a social media post. But it is so fabulous. So everyone pause and listen to that. Maybe just pause and rewind 30 seconds and listen to that last bit from Larissa that I'm sure she did not write down. And now you all can get it. But it will also be in the transcript. So that will save us all. This is beautiful. So let's close with what we're going to be eating this week. Speaking of play one of my biggest favorite most forms of play, I love to cook and bake. But I also love to eat as we know. Do you want to go first? You want me to go first?
Larissa Parson:I'm okay with going first if you want. Right? Okay. So one of the ways that I play is I have a book club with two of my friends. We don't talk about books. And that may not... we do sometimes talk about books, we talked about what we've been reading, we don't have like a particular book club focus. But what we always do in Book Club is eat. So we got together last weekend. And we were texting all day, like what should we have to eat? What should we have to eat? And we decided on like a charcuterie platter and some salad and some of this and some of that. And everyone's like, I got this, I got this, I got this. And it's like, what can I bring? I can bring dessert. So I went, you know, to Whole Foods, not like a fancy fancy bakery. But I picked up a pecan pie, and key lime pie. And I took them. And there were three of us. And there are two full sized pies. And I gave our host you know, a quarter or a half of one of the pies. I was like, please take this; I can't eat all this pie. But I've been eating pie all week. Like you know, just when I'm you know, when it's afternoon tea time, have some pie. Before bed, have some pie. After the second breakfast, have some pie. It's been amazing. I'm just so delighted by it. And I'm really done with these two pies. But thankfully, next week, it'll be sweet potato pie. So it'll be a totally different experience. Yeah, yeah. How about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I am a big fan of pie. And a big fan of t is book club. The more I hear a out it, the more I'm thin ing "I need to start a book club. But it's like a book and food club. Like I need that kind of t at that ratio, which seems to b a very positive ratio, but what ver your ratio is, that's the atio that I want for my book pie club. That's my only crit ria. I don't even care what we r ad. No, that's not comp etely true. Okay, so what am I eating? Okay, so I am going to California to see my siblings and my dad and I will be in the midst of some really incredible food. It's always really, really good, whatever I'm having is always really delicious. I'm very, very lucky. But also Thanksgiving is next week and I -- for all of the problematic pieces of this holiday--one of the things that I do love about it is being with other people and enjoying food around a table
Larissa Parson:yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:...that we have made together or at least participated in the bringing together. I actually make a really good stuffing. I think it's actually my dental hygenist And that's got some spinach. And you can
Larissa Parson:Yeah. at one point that it was a"dressing". She's from the south. So she said if it's it's stuffing if it goes in the turkey, and it's dressing if it does not. And I'm still like this has maybe been three or four years and she's told me make it with a faux sausage, which is probably what I'll do, this and I'm still kind of like wow, that's kind of marveling to me. So I make the dressing because it's not going in the because we've got some veggie folks there. And, gosh, some turkey and now I know and it's fabulous. It's got a couple of different kinds of cheese- I know my cheeses like I kn w my own name- it's got some beautiful Reggiano parmesan and ike a good plentiful cup something. It has some Pecorino romano. So it's got Reggiano a d Pecorino. Pecorino by tself is just not as strong, bu Reggiano together with Pecorino is just beautiful. eggs and you bake it a little bit salt and pepper and a little bit of olive oil. It's delicious. It's my grandmother's, my father's mother's, recipe that I've made for a really long time. And at some point--and I'm going to try this again, we tried it once and it was a flop huge flop--but this is a stuffing for ravioli. So this used to be her ravioli stuffing, and then it everyone loved it so much, Larissa, that we've incorporated into different holidays. So yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. Knock on wood, it's still gonna be good. Because I just haven't made it a year, we'll see. But it's something I love to eat. And I'm really looking forward to. That sounds delicious. It's so funny. I grew up on Stovetop, so I was listening to you talk about spinach, and I was like, that sounds so elaborate and fascinating. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, I'm excited for you to tell me all about how that goes. I expect a text at at a minimum, if not a phone call.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, yes. Yes.
Larissa Parson:And we just want to thank you all for listening. Please share Wondermine with your friends, write us a review, help other folks find us. And...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And, in between episodes, you can find us on Instagram@Wonderminepodcast. Thank you so much for being with us and we will talk to you again soon.
Larissa Parson:Thank you.
