Wondermine
Wondermine
Episode 6: Yes, And!
Elizabeth and Larissa consider what alternatives to binary thinking might look like. And we added an episode ahead of this one, which is why we say it's Episode 5 when it's really episode 6. We hope you enjoy!
Wayward by Dana Spiotta (bookshop)
These Bones Are Not My Child by Toni Cade Bambara
(Divorcing) White Supremacy Culture
Binary thinking: https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/eitheror--the-binary.html
Anna Sweeny, dietitian @DieticianAnna on Instagram
https://www.wholeliferd.com/#welcome
Kiese Laymon in conversation with Tressie McMillan Cottom on The Ezra Klein Show.
Hear To Slay episode, “Fat is Not a Feeling,” when Tressie McMillan Cottom and Roxane Gay talk to Julia Turschen
These Bones Are Not My child by Toni Cade Bambara (bookshop)
The Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor (bookshop)
Your Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor (bookshop)
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coach, a movement teacher, a mom to twins, a bit of a hippie. And this week, I'm really sad that The Great British Baking Show's current season is over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a parent partner, rape survivor and writer, I talk and write about trauma, relationships and culture. And I want to be someone who is sewing their own clothes. I've been thinking about this over the past week. But really at this point, I only just collect fabric. So that's that's the tidbit about me that you might not have known.
Larissa Parson:I love that because I also have had that want to be someone who sews their own clothes. I have collected fabric and even cut out patterns and then failed to sew them. I can relate to that. So, with that, we're the duo behind this limited series podcast called Wondermine. Wondermine is the limited series feminist podcast that looks at the "wow" and the "how" of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, this is the podcast for you. And as we do every week, let's start out with what we're reading. So do you want to go first, or do you want me to go first?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, why don't you go first?
Larissa Parson:Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Are you okay with that?
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I'm fine with that. So, this week I have been reading, I was gonna say slogging through. It's not so much of a slog. It's an emotional slog through Dana Spiotta's 'Wayward', which is a novel about aging, and the female body. And a little bit about social justice in a kind of like sideways way, but really about about some questions of things like gentrification. And there's also a lot written from the perspective of the protagonist's teenage daughter and sort of her own coming into herself as a woman. And I think what's complex and difficult about this book is I can relate to a lot of the things that are happening in it. And I also can't relate to a lot of them. So she's a 53 year old, white woman who's lived in a suburb and is separating from her husband and chooses to buy a house in the middle of Syracuse in a neighborhood that is not quite even gentrifying yet. And it's kind of fascinating. What I can relate to a lot is the middle of the night ruminations. Like she's waking up at three in the morning. And then she's just like, Oh, I'm awake. And not going back to sleep. And her mind is going in circles. And I can really relate to that. What's hard is that she is in a really rough, emotional place. And it's just hard to sit with all of those feelings and listen to them and watch them happen and unfold on the page and watch her behavior just spiraling in so many ways. And then her daughter is also spiraling in other ways. And so it's complex. It's interesting. I'm going to finish it, though I thought about giving up. That's what I'm reading.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I want to I want to hear a little bit more about that. Maybe offline, because I'm, I'm curious as to the giving up piece.
Larissa Parson:Do you want me to say more?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I feel like we have time. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just because I'm always interested in why people put down a book and you talked a couple of weeks ago that you were like, you know, reading another book about like this, whatever, this white guy and kept going with it and whatever. And I'm always just like, curious as to where those
Larissa Parson:You know, I think what it is right now is that as we're sliding into the dark of winter, I need more lighthearted fiction than what I'm reading. Also, the new Outlander book has just come out and I NEED TO READ IT. And so, I'm slogging through this book. So I'm feeling a lot of kind of, like, commitment to finishing the book. I got it from the library, so I'm gonna finish it before I send it back. And then there's also this desire to read something else. I want something fun. I've been reading pretty heavy books for the last few weeks. And now I would like a fluffy romance novel, please. I have a whole list of them ready to go. But I'm not there yet. So it's that feeling that's making me like I just want to get to the thing. And then I know that you know what, it's okay. Like my dopamine system could probably use a little more downing before I go to the easy, yummy, pleasure-filled fluff. And I'd like to be really clear. I love fluff and will read it all day. But you know, it's okay for my fiction reading to not all be pleasure reading or to be pleasure reading this challenging in a different way. I guess it's maybe way I put it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I feel like maybe there is something in a future episode on on reading and how we read and what we pick up and what we read, because I feel like I've learned a lot from you on what you choose to read. And I can't even tell you when I've picked up like a fluffy fiction book. Except if I mean, I really don't want to, I don't want to categorize genre this way. Our closest I would get would be some of the young adult like Land of Stories books that I've been reading, which my daughter has been reading, and I just don't pick it up. But I'll tell you when you talked about romance that I was really at where I was in some use books or somewhere Oh, when we were at the beach like a long time ago. No, no, no, no November. And I was looking for one of the Jackie Collins books that I read when I was like, maybe in my late teens, early 20s, about this character that I love, Lucky Sant'Angelo. And I was like, really these books and I couldn't find them. It was so bonkers. But anyway, she's super fluffy. Well, not fluffy. But that felt that felt as close to fluffy as I Bama restless, so it's not fair. But it's kind of similar.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, I totally get that. I mean, I hate to also designate a whole genre as fluffy because it's really not. And I have found that as I've read more and more romance, that there's so much depth, and there's ... we're totally not gonna spend this whole episode talking about books, y'all. I'll tie it into our topic, and then we'll hear about what you're reading. So, today we're gonna talk about yes/and we're gonna talk about binaries and stuff. And I think that calling something fluffy or not fluffy is a very binary way of talking about it, when in fact, what I have loved about reading romance and fantasy, is that because these are imaginary worlds, we get to make it the way we want it to be. And so most of the romance and stuff I'm reading has these really strong women or trans or non binary protagonists, and has these really, you know, consent full, right people relationships, and these really clear wrong people relationships, and it's really nice. So that's why I like reading that stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, that is such a nice tie in. My reading right now is going to tie in a little bit to how I think how you're feeling about the way workbook way labored. Yeah. Um, and so I have been reading for many months now on and off. Toni Cade Bambara, I think is how you say her last name. Her what has been called her magnum opus, These Bones Are Not My Child. And I am struggling with it in a really big way, I've put it down and I've come back to it, it's very, very long. So but that's not necessarily the challenge. It is looking at the if for those who don't are not familiar with this book. The main character is pretty much I would say a single mom, and she's in Atlanta and her son is disappeared. And it's basically 1970. I'm sorry, I think it's 1980, maybe summer of 1980. And this is in the midst of what we now know of as the Atlanta Child Murders. And so there's, it's, it's very emotionally heavy, but it's also incredibly dense. So when the main character Zala, is looking for her son, there's a lot of there's a lot of desperation that feels it can be really emotionally exhausting to sort of even just to witness it, but also the language that she's using, she's in an empty or like a deserted lot and looking around at the pieces of garbage there. And the every single piece is very finely detailed. And so there's a lot of language, there's a lot of emotion, there's a lot of a lot of words, nothing feels like superfluous or too much like sometimes I'm reading and I want someone to have more heavily edited what I'm reading and that's not the case here at all. It's just a lot. I took it with me on my trip in hopes of getting through more of it and I just I'm struggling with it. So that is what I'm reading and that is what I probably will be reading for a while maybe on and off because it's it's it's a lot to kind of go through.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. That it's a lot and listening to you describe it, I'm thinking that I'm probably not going to pick it up at least not this year.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Oh, no. And I really this is this is I mean I think I said this in an Instagram post. This has been such a challenging that's not even the right word for it. Mediocre word for a year but the fiction that has come out this year has bowled me over I mean I've talked about it nonstop I feel like here and other people have to but wow it's there's a lot there's there's some incredible, incredible books I feel like I read all of them. But not all of them but a lot of them and so this is this is not this is not new. The author has long passed and but it's still it's one that I've been wanting to read and will continue to go through but not not moving quickly through it.
Larissa Parson:No. And that's okay. Alright, on our books That's right. Stay tuned for bonus episode and books if you episode that we'll be releasing sometime in 2022... like this, We could talk about what it means to put down a book and pick up a book again,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:all day long. Um, but let's get back on track. Yep. And let's say this is our fifth episode, we're going to be talking about how Yes, And is a way to break free of binary thinking. And binary thinking is one of those characteristics of white supremacy culture, and it shows up everywhere. But first, let's get ourselves grounded into the right headspace for our conversation.
Larissa Parson:So for today's moment of grounding, I'd like you to pause wherever you are to notice your breath. So you can do this when you're driving, this is one of my favorite things, because you can do it anywhere. And you're just going to notice the shape that your body makes when you inhale. And exhale. And you're just gonna keep noticing that for a few more moments. And you can get curious while you're noticing. What are you noticing? And you can stop when you're ready or you can keep noticing. I'm going to ask you a few more questions to ruminate on. Did you immediately change the way that you were breathing when you started noticing your breath? And what's up with that? So now you can totally let go. Elizabeth has brought us right back into the room. I love it. How did that landed your body? Why did that make you laugh? I am very curious.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Because you're like, what's up with that? I'm like, did I and then and then I'm like, Oh, I'm not sure I'm doing this right? Wait a second. No, I'm okay and how I'm doing. And I can concentrate Elizabeth on what Larissa is saying right now. Okay, you can do this? And you can answer this question. Um, so what I will say after all the now you hear all of my internal dialogue, I love it. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, I'm Mike a little heart. I'm, I'm in Larissa knows this because we talked about this beforehand, but I'm standing and I don't normally stand. So one thing that I was curious or wondering about was how this would be if I was sitting and what I would notice if I was sitting as opposed to standing. My shape. I feel like my belly changed, like my belly got bigger or more inflated. I don't know, that's probably not maybe that's not the right kind of breathing or whatever, quote unquote, right. But that's something I noticed about what might how my body was changing as I was listening to my breathing or noticing my breathing, I guess.
Larissa Parson:Hmm, I love that. So, the reason that I love all of your internal thoughts, like would this be different if I were sitting? Am I doing this? Right? Oh, my belly is moving. Is that the right way to breathe? All of those things. That's such a good place to just start looking at how we start doubting ourselves, how we wonder if we're right or wrong, how we think there's only one way to be doing something. And it happens so easily when we turn our attention to our bodies that our first thought is, oh, I'm doing this wrong. No, you're just noticing, there's no wrong way to notice. But immediately, we're like, is this the right way to breathe? Yeah. And, I would say that, especially folks who have done any sort of like core pelvic floor rehab, we'll especially get into that thought process. Because it's one of the things that we work on a lot. So anyway, this episode, isn't going to assert that there's no such thing as right and wrong, because I think there is wrong stuff. And there is right stuff. There are right people and there are wrong people, for you. Because that right person could that wrong person could be the right person for someone else. But more often, the right choice that we make, or the right thing to do is kind of more in a gray area, where the right way to think about something is more in a gray area. It's not always really clearly binary. So sometimes we get really clear answers. Like again, you know who your right people are. You know that you like key lime pie, or I know that I like key lime pie. But so much more often things are much more murky.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And I think they can get really murky for For us when we start to look outside ourselves, and look into like what the world is saying, okay, so even if we look at a dialogue, like what's going on right now with the pandemic, so we hear a lot of messages that can feel confusing, at least for me. And cloudy, because we're just totally not sure what what is what is right or what we should be listening to, or how much weight we should give something. So we hear things like the pandemic is never going to end like this is our new normal. But we're also not told to like cancel our holiday plans, right. So this is, so there's that. But there's also travel restrictions going on now we're knowing that we can't travel to certain countries and certain countries can't come to us. But we know that things like mental health is important. So travel is important, because we do want to see people that we haven't seen in a very long time for some of us. We know that we can't rely on herd immunity, because that's now beyond us. But vaccines are the answer. But are they the answer? So there's a lot kind of going on there in terms of messages and what to what, how to how to parse through all of this. And so this is where we come back to Yes. And as a possible solution. And I think I want to do put it out there as a possible solution. This may not feel right for some people to adapt in this moment. For whatever reason. We're, I think that Larissa and I are kind of putting this out there as one tool that you can use as our, our joy drops or right people or any of these things that we've talked about so far. So we'll talk a little bit more in detail about why yes, is a solution. Maybe for some of you, and how and why it we can get there in a moment.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, so I think it's helpful to set up the problem a little bit. And I think you've done such a good job of articulating what a lot of us are feeling and considering as we continue through this pandemic, the never ending, apparently pandemic. And I think that's a really good example of one of those places where it's very hard to have a clear yes and no about everything. And where a lot of us are really working through a lot of decision fatigue because everything is a calculation of risk. And so at what point do we throw up our hands? What do we do in this kind of situation? So to step away from the pandemic, a little bit, but also I mean, let's be real, everything intersects with systems of oppression. And so I want to say that actually, it's definitely part of the problem here. So systems of oppression say that there's one answer. There's one clear answer, and they are often relying on the idea that there's a rational dictum that we can follow so the idea that like, well, if you just stay home forever, the pandemic will end. Or let's throw it into a different, a different place. People keep getting sick, so you never need to wear masks. We all have different belief systems into our belief systems are going to play into that kind of either or thinking a lot of the time. And so this is what Tema Okun and others describe as binary thinking. So many people talk about this, I just really like, pull this out of her website, whitesupremacyculture.info, because it's a really nice, clear description of what happens when binary thinking runs wild, or when we actually take binary thinking to its extreme. So in this excerpt, Tema is speaking to the difficulty that arose when folks took the old brief list. So this website is built from this long list. It's a short list, but this list has been for a long time shared among people with the characteristics of white supremacy culture, and it's really helpful, as far as just getting a sense of like, what are these systemic things that are getting in the way of our liberation? So because people were sharing this list, they were actually weaponizing it against each other in social justice spaces. So one of the things that she says here is to like explain why do we need to expand this list and make it more nuanced and make it more of a yes, and. "Building justice is complex and nuanced. While white supremacy culture likes to pretend we can reduce everything to a simple either / or. So we are called to navigate the complexity of our conditioning, without losing sight of the inherent humanity in each of us." And that's each of us, all of us. Right? liberation is not liberation without everyone. And so If you're listening, and you're thinking, 'Well, that sounds kind of interesting. And why aren't you elaborating on it more?' I recommend that you go look at the whole sub page on binary thinking. And we'll link to that in the show notes. Because you will see yourself, you'll see other people, and you'll see it quite clearly that we're all influenced by this kind of thinking. So when we're, like summing this up, binary thinking tells us there's one right answer. People are good or bad. XYZ is the answer. There's one way to do it. And then, what's the solution? Oh, wait, we have more to say about that. Actually, I think, Elizabeth, I think you were gonna say more.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, yes. So I think the, I think something I want to point out here, and this can be especially true for trauma survivors, who often feel like they're the only one feeling a certain way is it can feel really good for people to choose a side, to commit to something to stake a claim in a belief system or on a team, you know, loosely, used loosely, you know, when we do that we find solidarity with others, right? We all of a sudden, we're part of a group. And we're right there with them, we get affirmation from them, that we've made the quote unquote, right choice. We're in community with a group. And as social beings, this can feel really attractive and really soothing. And, and I was thinking, too, about, you know, those of us who were not chosen first to be on a team as a child at a playground or in a PE class, it can feel good, we don't we don't. That's a whole other episode. We don't forget a lot of those pieces, right? Or forget how it feels. Right? Like I let me just say, we don't forget how that feels as someone who has not chosen early on in a team. And so it feels it can feel really good to us to like, Okay, I'm going to make the choice. Now. I'm gonna be with these people. Yeah,
Larissa Parson:I was not chosen first, either. This is why we're friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:This is exactly that and coffee and food.
Larissa Parson:And books. So, yeah, it's totally a soothing and comforting to feel like you're part of the crowd. Being part of the in group makes us feel safe. Because when you weren't chosen first, or when you were chosen last, let's be more real about it. When you were chosen last, that did not feel safe. There's nothing safe about that. Once you get chosen, you're like, I have a team. So that's a really real feeling. The feeling of not being safe of not being part of the team. And the feeling that being on the team being in the group is safe. But like sometimes I wonder if that's not so real. And I think it's really hard to talk to my you know, 10 year old self about being picked last for the kickball team. But as adults, when we're faced with what feels like a binary choice, sometimes we get the feeling that there's another way, but we're not sure what it is. Because it might be the right choice in terms of what our community says. And I think I see this play out a lot. I've seen this plan a lot in the pandemic and people's families. That's just one of the really clear places where you see this happening where your body is saying, not so sure. But your community is saying no, this is the way. And so when our bodies kind of give us this not so sure message, we might call it intuition. Or maybe our values are saying otherwise, maybe it's coming from a place where we've really thought about this. And this is what we believe in. And we're kind of shocked that our group doesn't believe the thing we believe. Maybe it's something we can't quite put our finger on. So it's not always really rational all the time, that feeling. Sometimes we want to feel like we want to give someone else a chance. So that maybe goes back to that whole idea of liberation is for all of us. Or we want to do something that just feels more joyful than whatever the thing is, that is supposed to be the right thing to do. Like, you know, going to bed early and not staying up all night reading books.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:tempting as that is. Yes. So there's also a lot of really interesting research around this. But I feel like the bottom line that we need to sort of say here is that most of the time on the everyday decisions that we're making, we're not choosing the rational right thing. You know, if we did, we would never quit the job that had the pension, we would always continue on to do like the higher ed piece of whatever we were supposed to do that was projected for us early on. We would never get divorced. We would never start a small business and leave academia for starting a small business with public goods. You know, we often make decisions based on how we feel the circumstances that we're in. Right intuition or maybe what our values lead us to. And so we do all of this, despite the pressures from systems of oppression, thinking, that constantly drills into us what's right, quote, unquote, air quotes, again, reasonable or rational, so like staying with that job, for example. But it can take a lot emotionally for us and of course, a lot of time to, to get us to that place of what is literally choosing ourselves because of the endless messaging around what we should do. So the answer, then is, yes. And acknowledging this Yes, and the some really powerful things for us. One is that despite living in a capitalist society, which values perfection, excuse me, production and profit over all other things, we are human, we are not machines. So as humans, we can't ever be perfect. And if perfection is not possible, then binaries can't work, right? The Yes, and also allows us an opportunity into our authentic self, who we are on the inside. And this is not something that white supremacy, culture, capitalism or patriarchy really care about. So we get very few chances to learn or maybe relearn who we are and what really matters to us. The Yes, and is also a pause. It's a deep breath in. pauses are really powerful tools. But like your right people, Joy drops or tickle games, they're not valued by the world that we live in. So we don't get to experience the power of a pause as often as we might. So those are some some thinking around. Yes. And
Larissa Parson:I love all of this. So the bottom line here, is that yes, and gives us the space we need to acknowledge that life is more complex than the systems we live live in tell us it is. So I was thinking about, can we get into some more concrete examples? I feel like we've talked a little bit about pandemic stuff as a yes and area. But I think if we just play with a couple more, it might be even more clear. And yeah, I think that's all I'm gonna say about that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay, so here's one from my own life. So I have one child. And early on, I realized, and I'm the oldest of four, early on, I realized I wanted to know her schools and know her teachers, and be able to do pick up and drop off. And those were things that were important to me, as someone who's the oldest child, who sometimes got lost in the mix, who didn't have some of that those pieces shared specifically with her. But just admitting to this desire to have this relationship, but also value value, a piece of child rearing, perhaps is the right word. Just it really feels uncomfortable. It feels like I'm not living up to my potential, like I've a master's degree, shouldn't I be doing something high powered and high paying, it feels like a cop out, honestly, of some sorts just to be able to say that. So there's like a piece of that. And we can, I can talk a little bit more about that.
Larissa Parson:I can so relate to having a master's degree. This is always a good place to acknowledge that not everybody has the choice to make this choice. And so, I would guess that knowing you that's also part of that feeling of it's a cop out, I should be doing something, making more money so I could give money, etc.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So in my family early on, we agreed that I'd be that primary parent, I have a desire to be that person who, okay, when schools canceled or when there's a last minute thing or there's, there's volunteers needed for this activity, that I would be that main person. And that would mean then as the primary parents that then I would work part time. Okay, so I could do more of those things that really felt important to me. And so this trade off is, of course, that I don't bring in a full time salary, right? Like I don't work to my potential or whatever that would be. I'm not immersed in a kind of like business or corporate life. I don't have a network of colleagues. So there's a lot of trade offs, but probably the biggest one that's most visible to most identified to others, perhaps is that idea like that. I don't bring in a full time salary. So the yes and for me, works fine for my family works fine right now. Yes. It isn't working for me in this moment. And I may want to do something different in the future.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. So it's like, it's okay for now. That's the yes. And it feels like there are, and there are a bunch of external factors that make you wonder whether that's okay. Is it okay to live a life where this is what your primary occupation is? It's not sewing your own clothes. And I feel like things like livelihood, like not bringing in a full time salary. Or, let's say, starting your own business where you don't pay yourself very well. You know, those kinds of things are often things where choices feel narrower, because we all need money in this system. But so, I like that example. And we're just going to do this the whole episode, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, great.
Larissa Parson:And what about other kinds of decisions that are harder to make, because they're intertwined with maybe other parts of intersectional complexities? So the idea that we get in Sonya Renee Taylor's'The Body Is Not An Apology', and in also a million other texts around body liberation, I will say is that we're given this ideal, right? If you're white, cis, thin, able bodied, wealthy, all of those things, and probably some more stuff to anything that's not those things is not good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Absolutely. And I feel like I want to say that it's actually worse than not good. Anything else is bad. So not good can mean okay, or fine. But really, what we're told is that if we are not those pieces that you just rattled pieces of identity that you just rattled off this white sis able bodied, wealthy, maybe English speaking or a native born to the US, whatever, then we are bad. You know that who we are is bad. And we are bad.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, and then, like making decisions based on that, it's totally, we're already starting from a no.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And and let me just let me add in this piece of trauma survivor, right, because this is not this is the piece. For many of us, we already go into whatever risk situation or relationship already thinking that we are bad or not worthy or guilty in some way.
Larissa Parson:Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes. So important to make note of that. And let's include, let's include that particular angle here. So with this next bit, if we start asserting that all bodies are good bodies, all bodies, then we have to grapple with some really difficult ideas that make that binary thinking really difficult to continue with. So, for example, I have read a lot of writing in the last few years, from folks who contextualize things like weight gain, saying, "Hey, if you gained weight DURING A GLOBAL PANDEMIC," in all caps, "it's okay." Sorry, you can't see my hand over my face here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:But, Larissa's hand is over her face, right?
Larissa Parson:Face palming! Even that contextualization is speaking in a binary, like saying it's okay to gain weight during a pandemic implies that it's not okay to gain weight other times. It takes away the reality that bodies change, circumstances change, our bodies respond to circumstances, whether that's a broken leg or a global pandemic, or just being tired. Our bodies are never going to be able bodied through our whole lives. Our bodies are never going to be the same size through our whole lives. They change. So, is it surprising if your body changes during a global pandemic? No. And it's okay if your body changes outside of the pandemic too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah, I think this is a really good example that will bring it home for pretty much anyone who is aware that they have a body. So this is there's a lot and also I do want to sort of, you know, point out here that once again, we're bringing in something and not kind of delving into it too deeply. But there are so many people will make them in the show notes. I'm just thinking also of like, you know, Anna Sweeney, who's talked a lot about this very recently on Instagram and we can add her into the show notes but so there's there's out Obviously other resources out there, if this is feeling like, oh, I want to learn more. But this exactly what Larissa is saying, is a really another really important aspect of it. Yes. And it's fluid. It allows for space change circumstances beyond our control circumstances of our control. So all of those pieces. So, Larissa, let's get to this piece around how we embrace the yes and more.
Larissa Parson:So, how do we embrace the yes, and more? It's by noticing binary thinking and trying to weed it out. I think we really have to get good at noticing it. And we have to practice that noticing, just like we were noticing our breath, and noticing the way that we were thinking about all of that, at the beginning of this episode. We have to notice when we're engaging in either/or thinking. Sonya Renee Taylor wrote a workbook that came out this year that accompanies 'The Body Is Not An Apology'. It's called 'Your Body Is Not An Apology', and she has this really lovely set of exercises in there. So if you have the means to get hold of the book, I highly recommend playing with this workbook as a way of really looking into where you see either/or thinking coming up. But one of the things that she says in there is "either/or thinking limits the fullness" - this is just like, right with what you were saying, Elizabeth- it limits the fullness "of our human potential and clouds our radical self love vision, it makes it so hard for us to see how all bodies are good bodies," if we're thinking in either/or. Yeah. So one of the exercises she offers in the workbook, is to look not just to kind of look at where you're engaging in either or thinking and binary thinking--she gives a bunch of prompts for that. But the one that I really love, is that she asks us to look at the language that we use to describe things, or tendencies, or thoughts or choices or whatever. Words like"never, always, only, every time, mostly, rarely," those kinds of words can be signposts that we're engaging in binary thinking. So to make that a little more concrete, I feel like that's very concrete. But I'll make it more concrete by giving you an example. I find this coming up a lot in my own habits around making decisions in my business. I tend to think now or never, when I consider signing up for a course, or hiring somebody to do things or something like that. And let's be honest, that the way that things are marketed, that kind of like leans into that sense of urgency, and that binary thought, and there are many podcasts out there that you can listen to about that particular tendency. But if I talk to one of my right people, and I say, I'm thinking about signing up for this course, what do you think? they might ask me, 'Why now?' Because my right people know that I don't have time, or that I do have these skills. Or that there are lots of different things. Why does that have to be now? And then that pause breaks the cycle and opens up space for me to consider that this may be the right thing for a future version of me. But it isn't what I need right now. And then we can so then we can take that and apply it to things that are a little bit more mundane. I feel like this is a very mundane kind of conversation for me in my head actually. This should I take this course? Should I do this thing? But even thinking about things like the people I live with, things like my kids never pick up their dishes. That's binary thinking too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yeah. And I think that so I want to track back to something for a second. And, and that is the piece that you mentioned about how we are marketed to as individuals and as business owners. And it's, it's, I really want to say that there are there are often as we have learned, really predatory pieces kind of capitalizing on this binary thinking. So you need to do this now. Or at what cost if you don't or choose yourself, some of these messages. I mean, even the message of choose yourself is binary thinking right? You choose yourself or you don't, I mean, that's awful. So pieces like that. I think that we are especially susceptible to all of us whether we are in business or whether we are just simply purchasing something on the internet or looking for looking for a birthday gift. So noticing is a big thing here in terms of how we embrace you know, I think this is this. It's really interesting to me that when we think about the tools that we get to A lot of it boils down to very accessible pieces like noticing, which may not be super fast or sexy. But there it is. And so noticing for me also comes up with feelings. So when I think about like, like hopelessness or anger, like frustration, sadness, even big things, you know, like whatever grief or shame like i Those are often things that come up for me when I'm in binary thinking, I'm either an ally, or I'm not. Right, because silence is violence. I gotta be speaking up speaking up speaking up. I'm successful in my work. Or I'm not. If I'm not making a lot of money that I'm definitely not. Right. So things like how we feel and the messages that we give ourselves, which are, of course messages that are coming down from the systems of oppression that we live, work and play in. Because we can't escape those are really big things also to notice. The feelings that we have. Any thing that rings especially true for you, Larissa?
Larissa Parson:I love every bit of that. And I feel like it's just true. Like, those binaries really get us with that in the feelings. In "all the feels" as, Yes, they were saying 10 years ago. And it feels bad. It feels yucky. We don't like how it feels. And then the solution that the binary thinking gives us is, how do we get rid of a bad feeling? We do the thing that we're told will make the bad feeling go away. Buy the thing!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:and fix it fast. Fix It Fast. Yeah. And I want to say that, you know, these these feelings that feel bad, hopelessness, anger, frustration, grief, shame, whatever, they are not bad. Right? So that's it. That's an important this can be really hard, you know, shout out to all the trauma survivors who are out there saying, you know, muddling, muddling through but really, feeling immersed in some really strong hard emotions, that we have the you know, I feel hopeless, or I feel shame. So I am those things, you know, so that is a really I just want to sort of make that acknowledgement as the side. Yeah, yeah.
Larissa Parson:I just want to pick up on that idea that because you feel a thing, you are a thing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:That's ... you say it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know if you're, I don't know if you're going where I'm going here, but maybe we are we're going together. This is making me think of the--which I didn't listen to whole thing--So just disclosure there. This the episode of Hear to Slay, where Tressie and Roxane talk to Julia Turshen. And the title is "Fat is Not a Feeling." Yes. And Julia Turshen is like, "Wait, that's not a feeling," you know, and she's having this great conversation and I think I don't know Tressie or Roxane,, one of them is like "fat actually isn't a feeling." But we've been drilled into our minds to think that it is a feeling so side note. We'll have that in the in the show notes. But that's also kind of a piece. So feelings, but I also want to go to behavior. Yeah. So Kiese Laymon said, Something just kind of broke my heart open as I was listening to this on the plane ride back, and he's talking with Tressie McMillan cotton on the Ezra Klein show. So Tressie is guest, was guest hosting for Ezra Klein while he's on paternity leave, I think. And Kiese says, "When I don't read and write a lot, I'm just a terror to be around." And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this he said this and I was like, Wait, that's true for me too! Can that... be a thing?! And I just I, anyone who follows me on Instagram now so much I worship this man, because I think he's just so, he's vulnerable. And this conversation is so powerful. If you've not listened to this, especially if you're a writer, do any kind of writing. Go and listen to this, it will be in the show notes also. But I read a ton. When I was in California--I just came back a couple of days ago--I read a book on the way over a book when I was there, I finished another book on the way back leave tons of reading, not as much writing. But gosh, I was so pleasant to be around. Yes, there's vacation and all these other pieces. I'm not I'm not working in that traditional sense. But when things feel tight, when I feel boxed in when I am in the depths of scarcity thinking or I feel cornered, or I feel rushed, or I feel micromanage. These are all real big red flags for me. I can be the queen of hearts like "off with their heads!" I am a terror to be around. I'll mindlessly scroll more, I will pick up my nails more. I do less intuitive eating. So how we are acting and noticing that in addition to noticing how we're feeling can be another big red flag for binary thinking.
Larissa Parson:Oh my gosh, yes. I love that. I mean, I love that, but I'm sad. You know? Like, I love that, and I relate to it. And then that makes me feel like, oh gosh, what are my behaviors? They're the same. They're not the exact same, I don't pick my nails. But yeah, boy "off with their heads" all day long when I feel boxed in. And when I feel like I don't have the time to do the things that I need to do to take care of myself, what nourishes me, connecting with people, or like all of those things, reading something that I really like reading, all of that kind of stuff. It really, really resonates. And I think that that the lack of those things drives me into more binary thinking and behaving for sure. Then I start thinking always and never all the time. So, we know how to find the binaries. We look at our feelings, we look at our actions, we look at the words that we're using to describe what is happening around us. And then get curious to embrace the yes, and. When we embrace the yes, and, we expand the possibilities that are available to us. So instead of yes, no, a decision becomes a not right now. Maybe it becomes a no, but it's a no, because. You have a real clarity around that. Or we can imagine even richer possibilities than that. I feel like when you were speaking earlier, about choosing ourselves, like how we get into this, this binary idea of choose yourself, spend the money. Yes/and lets us choose ourselves more authentically. We choose what is really right for us in this moment, in these circumstances, right now. And we do it with a pause and deliberation and a real sense of clarity and peace around it. And I think one other way I would say this, is that with a yes, and, we can - and I'm paraphrasing Kelly Diels here - we can dwell with one foot in the world as it is and one foot in the world that we want to live in. Because, and. Because, yes. Because they go together. And it is hard sometimes to bridge those two places. But it's where most of us are living our lives anyway. And it is nice to be able to say yes, and to both of those.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I have nothing to add there. That's a beautiful sum up and I love this conversation. Do you-- I'm stealing your line.
Larissa Parson:Oh, well, I was just thinking before we get to what we're eating, which is such a yes, and category for us. Really. I was just thinking about like, if I went I think one concrete example of embracing Yes. And instead of like looking at the binaries. It might be something like Yes, everything is hard right now, AND I like my coffee. It can be so simple. It doesn't have to be, you know, huge. It can be super, super simple. Okay, now we can talk about what we're eating. So I'm gonna go first.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Great.
Larissa Parson:So here's my plan. Um, let's see, what am I eating this week? I have had a lot of good food this week. I cooked for the what feels like the first time in months. Yeah, I made homemade burgers. And they were really good. Like, I put spices in there. Lots of black pepper turns out. So that was awesome. And- I am gonna yes, and all the way through. I am looking forward to going to pick up my CSA today because I was in preparation for this episode. I checked what I ordered, which I never do. And I was like, I didn't order myself any treats, but she always has extra treats. So I'm looking forward to picking something out randomly that is available when I get there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:This feels to me like the book slash food club you're in. I'm always like, wait, what CSA is. That's not mine. How come I don't have that thing over there that you have I want it to but that's also so me. I'm thinking what's my treat? Where's my treat? How come I didn't get one for myself? So I'm feeling really glad for you that you can. You didn't get one, that you can order yourself one when you get there. That's fantastic.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, she just gets a few extra things from Strong Arm every week. And so I know that when I show up, I'll be like, Oh, what do you have today? And if she doesn't have anything, I'm going to the store too. So I will pick myself up something.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:we'll make it work.
Larissa Parson:I need my sugar. I need the treat. Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, so I've just come off a week of fan. Fantastic eating. As always, this is why I cannot live there full time because there's just no way I would feel it afford how I eat when I am there. Because it's just so amazing. So well, I'm looking forward to keeping things very simple. In the coming weeks, we have a bread delivery from Ninth Street bakery. They have a beautiful CSA, CSA, the beautiful bread, it's my bread subscription service. That's kind of what I want. And so last week, we got one that my husband put in the freezer and I took out a couple of days ago when I came back last week, we got a really beautiful like polenta loaf, and you always get a baguette. So you get a baguette and then their special loaf of the week or whatever they're doing. So that actually shows up tomorrow it is delivered. And I love that, like my favorite. It's a surprise to which I love. So I think what I'm going to do is channeling back to Ooh, it may have been the first episode that we did when you were talking about the cheese that your mom sent you. And so I have some really beautiful apples. And so I'm going to like a tango apple that I really like. So I'm going to go and get some cheese that I love. Find something like I like a cambazola or like a creamy blue and have that with whatever bread I'm going to be that's gonna be dropped off at my house and some really, really delicious apples. I'm keeping it simple in the coming in the coming days since I've been eating sort of in in fancy and beautiful and complicated way. So now I'm going going simple next week.
Larissa Parson:That sounds lovely. Now cheese is on my list for a grocery shop this afternoon. Thank you very much.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Um, so thank you to all of you for being here. Please consider sharing wonder mind with friends or writing us a review that helps other people find us.
Larissa Parson:And until next time, you can follow us at@wonderminepodcast on Instagram. Thank you so much for being here.
