Wondermine
Wondermine
Episode 8: Wrapping up!
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In this episode Elizabeth and Larissa wrap up and recap the themes of this series of podcasts. If we could sum it up in one word: titration.
Mentioned in this episode:
Matrix, Lauren Groff (bookshop)
Go Tell The Bees That I Am Gone, Diana Gabaldon (bookshop)
Allegory of the Cave from Plato’s Republic
Pleasure Activism, adrienne maree brown (bookshop)
The Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor (bookshop)
Nuvotaco Durham
Cocoa Cinnamon coffee in Durham
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson, I'm a joy coach, a movement teacher, a mom to twins, a bit of a hippie and I am so ready for my time off next week.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I feel that one. I am Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a parent partner, rape survivor and writer. I talk and write about trauma, relationships and culture. And I believe in magic, everyday magic like fairies and finding items that were misplaced. But also big magic like Santa Claus.
Larissa Parson:I love that so much. Magic. Magic. We are the duo behind this limited series podcast called Wondermine. Wondermine is a limited series, feminist podcast that looks at the "wow" and the "how" of living a life rooted in curiosity, community and liberation. If you've ever felt like something was missing, or you were missing something, this is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And this is our final episode. We're not going to get into any specific topic per se, but rather offer a wrap-up. A small but powerful gift wrapped box of sorts of some of the key ideas we talked about this season. But first, as we always do, we're gonna chat about what we're reading. Larissa, can you start us off?
Larissa Parson:Yeah, so I finally got to start Diana Gabaldon's latest Outlander novel. And it's been maybe three years since the last time I read one of these, this is the... I want to say it's the ninth or the 10th book. I'm really terrible at keeping track of those things. And so I'm having to completely re-familiarize myself with the context and the characters. And she's really good at that, and really good at weaving it in. So that you don't go oh my gosh, who was this person? Who is that person? Like, you get these little reminders. And that's really, really helpful. And I really just love revisiting that world. So I'm really enjoying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's a great, that's a great recommendation. And it's, I think it's a good sometimes it's a good practice for me to go back and like remind myself about who these key characters were in books in series, you know, when they update, I have not read any of those. But I know everyone, a lot of people I know, we're fans. A couple of books showed up in my library queue that I had put on hold were finally available. And one of them is Matrix by Lauren Groff. This is her second novel, and her first one was Fates and Furies. I think recommendation came to me via those mini book reviews in the New Yorker. So I am maybe 10 pages into it. So very, very early in. And a young woman named Marie has been sent to this priory in like 1152. And that's where she's going to live out her days. And she's been sent there by... I want to say Eleanor of Aquitaine. So it is a historical fiction, which I haven't read in a while. And I'm a big fan of already, I'm really liking this character of Marie. And I'm hoping that stays with me because I have a hard time staying with books where I don't feel a lot for any of the characters I'm encountering. Which sometimes is why I don't finish reading the book. So excited for this.
Larissa Parson:Cool. That's one of the books on my to read list. Oh, my very long to read list. So I'm really curious to see how you like it. And definitely, it's kind of been moving up and down my list, but it's early 2022. And we can talk about it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay, great. Um, Larissa, do you want to lead us in a grounding exercise before our conversation?
Larissa Parson:Sure. So let's expand a little bit on the exercise we did last week. And one of the three exercises we did last week. And you're going to center yourself in your body, wherever you are, just like notice where you are in space. If you've got your feet on the ground, notice they're on the ground. If you're sitting at a chair, notice that you're sitting in a chair, just kind of give yourself that moment of, oh, here I am. And then pick a body part that feels good to touch and give it some attention. And I'm keeping that really vague on purpose. Because you don't need to think too hard about what attention means. It could just be rubbing your hands together, or just holding on to that part. And if there isn't a part that feels particularly good. Is there a part that feels neutral? So again, maybe your elbow, maybe you just cross your arms? Does that feel neutral? Or does that feel like a gesture? So see what feels interesting to you. Just give a little attention to a little bit of your body. And then come back to noticing your feet on the ground, or your butt in your seat. And check in. How does it feel now that you've given yourself just a little tiny bit of attention?
Elizabeth M. Johnson:It feels good. I chose my hand, my right hand, I'm right handed, and I was sort of working with the palm of my hand with my left hand. So both hands were involved and kind of just like massaging the meaty palm of my hand. It felt good to sort of be mindful and concentrating on one thing.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, yes. Oh, I love that. Because we concentrate on way too many things at once so much of the time. Yes, yes, yes, I'm having a little laugh with myself about how many things I've been concentrating on in the last few days. And it's just it's way too many. It's way too many.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I have also been concentrating on many things in this moment. And so have lots of other folks in my circle that I've been hearing from, too. Lots of things happening at the end of the year. And so there's also that timeline piece that we don't always necessarily have and it's maybe less arbitrary than it normally is. It is for me anyway.
Larissa Parson:Yeah, for sure, for sure, there is some stuff that has to get done by a certain day and a certain time. And if I don't work on it right now, then it won't get done. And let's be real that both of us are taking time off at the end of the year very much on purpose. And that requires actually wrapping some things up sometimes. Not everything! Some things can carry over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's right.
Larissa Parson:You don't have to tie it all up with a shiny bow. But it does need to stop at some point. So anyway, over the last seven episodes, we have explored varying ways to access a life rooted in curiosity and moving towards liberation. Because liberation is not an endpoint. To make these ways, these paths, accessible, and to make them feel more easeful. We've talked a lot about the idea of titration. And so we talked about it in our episode on pleasure, we talked about it in our episode on play, we talked about it when we talked about coming home to your body. Titration, this idea of easing into something bit by bit, sort of like when you taste a new food a little bit at a time before you decide if you want more, or checking the temperature of a bath or a hot tub. I really think hot tubs are a really good analogy for this one, because like you want to get in the hot tub. But if it's a little too hot, you might put your foot in, and then you might go up to your knees. And then you kind of ease in a bit, maybe you take your legs back out. And then you go all the way you go a little farther in, you don't just jump in all at once, and let yourself get scalded, we kind of take it bit by bit. And then you might you know, maybe even get out a little bit, you might decide, Oh, I've been in here five minutes, and I'm feeling hot. So you might go sit on the edge for a bit and then come back in again. So small steps, and titration are really important. They're really important markers in the process of liberation, because it makes this process palatable and accessible, even for trauma survivors. And we've seen this show up repeatedly this season. And I'll also say that it's really important for anybody who's just taking this step in any direction, that requires a little bit more than you've been doing before, whatever that is, if that makes sense. And coming home to your body was really focused on in last week's episode.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, yeah. And we talked about how nervous systems really aren't built for"the wow and the how" to be in every moment of our lives. Right, this tip channels us back to episode two, which was all about pleasure, right? Kind of like we talked about big p pleasure, super overwhelming, if we are in it all the time. That's not sustainable, that amped up feeling can be a lot to take. And so what we didn't talk about--which I do feel like is sort of important to mention here-- is the opposite of this. Which would be being in crisis all the time. And so I as someone who's worked with abuse survivor, I tend to use the word "crisis", but crisis looks different to different people. So I'm not necessarily here speaking about the crisis of like, being temporarily homeless, but it could be crisis in different ways. You lose childcare unexpectedly. Your kid goes to school and there's no teacher for your child. Your partner loses their job, you lose your job. You're asked to take on extra responsibilities. The child has diagnosed with something. All of these things can feel like a crisis. They can feel traumatic and it's important to remember here that trauma is something that we get to define for ourselves. So I, for example, would say, yes, my partner losing their job is something that's traumatic for myself. So crisis is more about--how we're using it here-- is more about like, moving from fire to fire like that is completely exhausting. And I don't want to go too deep into this. But just to sort of give it as a contrast to the big p pleasure in the similar way that it doesn't feel good, emotionally or physically. Right, our bodies are not supposed to be in fight mode all the time. That's exhausting. Fight mode elevates our cortisol. That's the stress hormone that helps the body cope with stress through its effects on metabolism and immune system. So cortisol is a good thing in moderation. But high levels of cortisol can lead us to all kinds of health and wellness challenges and dysregulated sleep and all kinds of things. So bottom line, when you're living on the edge, whether it's in crisis of your own definition, or you're constantly in like big pleasure, you don't feel good.
Larissa Parson:Yes, yes. And let's put this in the context of our lives over the last two years, we have all been in crisis for two years. And the effects of that crisis have been bigger or smaller for many of us, depending on what kind of socioeconomic status we have, what kind of cushion we have, what kind of you know, all that kind of stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Support systems...
Larissa Parson:Support systems. Yes, by "cushion" I was including support systems. But thank you for naming that that way. That's a really important, Elizabeth. So it doesn't feel good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right.
Larissa Parson:And with that as a big picture of the context we're in, and then there's also systems of oppression, which as we know, get heightened and intensified by crisis a lot of the time. Um so, but here on Wondermine, we're all about feeling good(laughter).
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, we are!
Larissa Parson:But course, not all the time, because we can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's overwhelming.
Larissa Parson:Because it's overwhelming. And here's our Yes, And. So one way to avoid avoid burnout, when it comes to taking time to look at what is going on in the world and in ourselves, and how are we affected by crisis or pleasure both, is to slow down. And when we're when we're looking at changes we want to see in the world, one of the ways to make it doable for ourselves is to slow down. So when we start looking at Oh, hey, fatphobia is actually making me feel terrible about my body. That, like when we start shifting that lens on the world, we don't just like swap it out for a whole new set of glasses that have a really different prescription, because that hurts. And maybe I'll use a different analogy, a time-worn analogy. And I'm going to have a major nerd out moment here. The more that we've been talking about the idea of titration over the last several weeks, the more than I think like oh, wow, this is just like Plato's cave. So for those of you all..I'm like jumping, literally jumping up and down, Elizabeth can see. In the context of liberation, right, because
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, yes. Let me just say what other podcast out there is talking about Plato's cave, let's just be honest. there's probably some podcast talking about Plato's cave in all kinds of ways that I don't agree with. However, um, so I spent 10 years teaching high school. And this is one of the texts that I taught a lot, and I studied it, studied it as an undergraduate as well, and in grad school. So let me give you the really short version of the cave- which is an analogy that's being used in the Republic to kind of describe souls. And the Republic as a whole is a metaphor for the soul. So let's not even get into all of that detail. All you need to know for the purposes of this conversation, is that Socrates is saying, hey, what if there were people in a cave, and they were chained in place, so they can only face a wall. And there are shadows of puppets being projected onto the wall, there's fire behind all the people and then there are puppets in front of the fire and the shadows are on the wall projecting on the wall, and they're chained in place. They can't even turn their heads, they have no idea what's behind them. All they know is what they see in front of them. And I think that the idea of a movie theater really helps with this image because you've got this projector behind you. So you can just imagine that if that makes it easier. So the people in the cave have never known any other reality. And there's also these other details in the story, I'm not going to get into them, but they have contests about what they see and stuff like that. Just imagine that one person gets forcibly dragged out of the cave. And first, they're confused, because they see the puppets and the fire on their way out. And they're like, What was that? I don't even know. But they just keep going because they're being pulled out. And this, my friends, is not titration. When they're pulled out into the light, they're completely blinded by first at first, because it's so bright. And it's impossible because the transition is so extreme, it's impossible for them to believe what they see is real at first. And I have this really strong memory. It's this little fragment of memory of... I think maybe we went to see Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, or maybe it was Return of the Jedi. I was like, eight, or something like that. And it was the middle of the day. And we walked out of the theater through the doors that led directly outside. And it was exactly this kind of experience. I just remember it being in the dark, and then being in this bright white light. So and Plato goes on to describe like, how, how these people would get used to it. And they'd come to discover that the things outside are real. And then they get confused by going back into the cave. And they'd be like, No, it's not real, that people in the cave are like, Yes, it is. There's like this whole, there's this whole back and forth here, but but we're just focusing on the like coming out of the dark into the light the dark of the cave into the light of day, we're trying to do the opposite of dragging somebody through, and just shoving them into the light and saying figure it out. When you leave a movie theater, usually, you usually go down like a dark hallway, to get out of the theater itself, then the brighter one with the dim light, so so that it's not too much of an adjustment when you go back into the theater, if you are going like to the bathroom and coming back, and then you go into the lobby, and a lot of the time the lobby has big tinted windows, so there's lots of light coming in, and then you go outside, and it might still be bright. But it's not like this glary intense light. Because that is disconcerting. And it's a huge stress on our nervous system. Instead, we're walking down the hallway of liberation for our whole lives. It's a process. So yes, we're walking toward the, quote, unquote, light. And we're not in any rush to get there at all. And we are in a rush, right? It is urgent, it is important. Liberation matters for all of us. But we're not putting that layer of urgency, that means we have to rip ourselves through it. If that makes sense. Yeah, because that's somewhat of an imposed urgency than isn't it? Right? Because that's sort of like a systems of oppression thing. I feel like that's a little bit of capitalism, that's a little bit of everything in there, this, "go and get it done" quickly thing. And I want to just lift up that sentence a little bit more. We're walking toward the light. And we're not in any rush to get there. We hear all the time, that life is a journey, and what's the rush, let's stop and smell the roses and enjoy these moments. And, you know, those words are beautiful and inspiring. And there's a real practical aspect that can get missed. And I think this can be especially true for trauma survivors who have been may have been in crisis to crisis to crisis and do have exhausted nervous systems, you know, so it's like, okay, let's all stop and smell the roses and pause. Well, practically speaking, how do we do that?
Larissa Parson:Yes. Hmm.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So the tool we're talking about is small steps or titration. We have to ease into this idea of the long walk out of the cave. We have to meander through the hallway in the theater, passing from space to space, gradually going towards more of the brighter light of the day outside. But we're used to running sprints, right? We're used to really taking off at a breakneck pace, and then also being praised when we do that breakneck pace. So that's another tricky piece. So small steps and titration are ways that we can get used to this idea that is sort of inspiring. And yes, life is a journey, and we need to stop and smell roses. But how do we do that? We do that through small steps and titration. But I want to talk a little bit about the other tools that we've touched on the season.
Larissa Parson:Yeah. So some of the other tools that we use to move away from white supremacy culture, and its insistence on perfectionism and urgency, and the capitalistic work ethic, like all of these things that are saying your body doesn't matter. All of those things. We have joy drops, which are tiny moments of pleasure, and noticing and getting curious, which is operating as an observer rather than a judge. And I really think to speak about those two slash three things. It's really kind of three. But I put noticing and curiosity kind of in the same category. We're, we're just taking... They're kind of similar. So, but the joy drop, we're noticing what feels good. And what blank brings us pleasure. We're not talking about big P pleasure. We're talking about small simple things. So again, small steps. Titration. So here's my example, which is very mundane. Because I knew I'd be up extra early this morning, I pre loaded my coffeemaker. And because my partner's out of town, I put some cardamom in it. So it would have this slightly different flavor. Like as if I'd gone and got myself a fancy latte. And then when I made my coffee, I added cinnamon and sugar, and cream. And while it was still hot from the pot, and while I was working this morning, while my kids were sleeping, every single-still hot, because my kids are asleep-sip of coffee was a chance for me to enjoy that little bit of being in my body. Like, Yes, I'm up earlier than I went to be, yes, I am exhausted. And this coffee is effing delicious. It's not the experience I have most days of chugging down a rapidly cooling cup of coffee. And it took just a little bit of forethought, but not a lot. And I noticed that I felt really, really delighted by it. Just like every little sip I'm like, Woohoo! I put cinnamon in my coffee today. And it's just a little thrill. So that choice to do that came out of curiosity, what would make tomorrow morning better. And then so to talk a little bit more about curiosity, instead of immediately assuming that we know the answer, or the right thing, it's about sitting with a question and getting curious, like, maybe thinking, Oh, I'll enjoy brewing some tea, or I'll enjoy making some coffee or just pre grinding the coffee would have been okay, but instead, I was like, what would really light me up? So that can be so your curiosity can be about something like that. Do I like cinnamon my coffee? Or it could be bigger? Does that person's post on social media really needs to be responded to by me right now? Could that be a private conversation? Could that be something that takes more time? Could we slow down the process? It's about asking questions instead of leaping to judgment. And so with a social media post, for example, instead of saying they're wrong and I need to tell them right now how wrong they are. Which is like me getting all up in my judgmental feelings. And it's not gonna really resonate or really feel good to the person receiving that feedback, if I'm coming from that place. Coming from a different place, maybe, but coming from that place no. So that's a practice. In our culture, like you said, just now, Elizabeth, like we're used to being praised for running sprints, we're conditioned to need to know the right answer right away. But getting to the truth and getting to liberation is more complex than that. And that's why things like I was just gonna say, like, collaborative processes when we're talking about doing social justice organizing work, work really well, and they take time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I want to add on to that bit about the social media piece, because I posted something in response to someone's post that just didn't feel good to me. And I said,"I'm not sure this is a fair judgement, we don't know the whole situation," was the bottom line of my post. And someone messaged me, I don't know their name. But they decided to message me privately and said," I wanted to just say this, that we actually, we actually do know more. " And then shared more of the circumstances around the situation. I did not have the most accurate or current information about the story. And they said, "I don't want to I don't want to add more fuel to the fire here. And I definitely don't want it to look like I'm calling you out. And I support this idea of not judging people for their circumstances, because we don't know. And I still want you to know actually, the fact as how they stand now." And I really appreciated it, I responded to them privately and said, "I guess I didn't have all the information. And thank you so much. And I really appreciate you messaging me and taking it and having it remain at this level between two people." And I feel like I was humble and apologized for, you know, not not having all the information. And they did the right thing. And it felt good. They did the right thing in my mind for me. And it felt really good to respond to them in a way that was sort of that was calm, and measured in exchange for their measured thoughtful statement. And the people on the original post, were really slammed me and were like, "you clearly don't know. And if you've read anything you would have known". And I was, and I came back and was kind of abrupt with them. And I said, "I guess there were stories that I didn't know. " And snarky as hell was like,"y'all didn't think to share them. So where are they anyway?" You know, so I had a really different response to being kind of called out like, "you don't even know you think you know, but you don't know." And I was thinking, "well, that's not really fair". But I responded totally in kind with their tone, very aware that I was and kind of wanted to say, what just wanted to prove myself in a way and say, I did, here's the two stories I read. And I guess they were not as current as I thought they were. But it really, it's interesting to me how we can then respond in a way match that response, which...
Larissa Parson:Yep,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:...in a positive or a negative.
Larissa Parson:Yep, that's what we do. That's how we human. Everybody's not always doing their best all the time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right.
Larissa Parson:And it affects every single one of us every time that we touch that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right.
Larissa Parson:But every time that somebody's not doing their best at us, we don't do our best back. And that's okay. And it's interesting, Elizabeth, that you can step back and look at that and go, Look, I know that was not my best. And there we are. I have different responses. Yeah. So this really makes me feel like talking about community. Right in here. Because we're talking about, like, we talked about community is partly your right people, and the people you're in right relationship with. But there are lots of other people who make up community. And it depends on the context where we're talking about community, like Instagram is one kind of community. And then you and I having conversations is a different kind of community. So how do all of those relationships kind of lead us toward or away from maybe liberation and joy? Hmm.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:So I think of community as everybody. Yeah, so that's like everybody, I mean, not like my community is everyone who was part of my world. So it's not, you know, Vice President Kamala Harris, but it is in a way, if I follow her on social media. So it is my kiddos, friends, parents, it's people I volunteer with, if I went to church, it would be church, church family, it's certainly family of origin. It's work colleagues, it's professional associations, it's chosen family, it's all of these people, including right people, and right relationships. And because our community is large, and it includes so many people, including our social media people, it's really important that we do have those right people and those right relationships, right, because they balance the rest of everyone else.
Larissa Parson:Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:We have toxic family that we cannot end a relationship with, for whatever reason. And that is very true for some people, especially for some trauma survivors, for whatever reason, multiple reasons, very valid So, circling back to the cave, right? We need other people to reasons. All the more reason why we do need right people and
Larissa Parson:Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:...possible level. This is why people come right relationships. So when we have our right people and our back to a support group that they feel welcome and affirmed that because they feel seen. All of a sudden they hear a story that is similar to theirs and the light goes on. And they're like, "I'm not the only one." They feel seen. They feel right relationships, we better understand how to move toward validated, their nervous system gets regulated. So we just said get us out of the dark cave, because we're not all doing the nervous systems are not built for the "wow and the how" because whether that's the wow of big p pleasure or the wow of moving from fire to fire, readying yourself for battle, your right people and your right relationships are healing. And liberation. They help us move toward liberation, because they this is not just mine and Larissa's opinion on this, there's plenty of work out there. I will, we will share in the show notes about one of my personal heroes, Dr. Bruce Perry, who talks a lot about this. Shout out Bruce Perry! are people who then can see us and raise us up for who we are They're healing, they're validating, they allow you to be seen and in turn them feel regulated, right. So there's just to kind of like some of your there's a lot that we can do on our own. But if all we ever do is like act on behalf of best we can and being seen regulates us. This is so crucial ourselves without any kind of right people, without without having a stake in our failure or success or feeling so connections to others, just with all of this influence of community and these bigger systems of oppression on us, we're not only going to feel really lonely-- and not experience the pleasure of being with our right people or right relationships because that's so deep and rich --we're just gonna protective of us, they won't allow us to move toward a place be exhausted, in part because of the stress of doing it all alone and working with other these systems of oppression, which is like "you go on your own, you don't need other people," "You don't need other people," is what the systems of oppression tell us. And we know the exact opposite is true, even though it is not the so called "right" answer that we're taught. of liberation. on
Larissa Parson:Yes to all of that, to all of that. One of the things that has popped up over and over again and think piece after think piece after think piece throughout this ongoing pandemic, is how parents, frequently and particularly mothers, but parents in general, I will say, are overstretched. And that's I know, that's an understatement. A big reason why is that for most of the last two years, the already meager and not enough support systems, the community ties that help us kind of limp from day to day with just a little bit more ease, have been strained, or even severed. And that includes kind of looking at different families, different systems like that, like there's schools, closing, all of that kind of stuff. Like, I just I know so many friends who had to stop talking to their family because of differences around how to handle the pandemic. So then there's a sense of isolation and loneliness, again, and coupled with trying to work with kids underfoot or doing online school for all of last year. But that's been a disaster for people's sense of community. And we don't have communal support for raising children in this country in a way that also supports the physical and mental health needs of parents. And I want to say that because of that this does not just affect parents, it affects, it affects folks who are not parents, too, in lots of different ways. It shows up as like, well so and so as to take care of the kids. So you have to pick up the slack. And in more broad terms, it shows up because all of our liberation and joy is bound together whether we like it or not.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:That's right.
Larissa Parson:Right. We're not supporting parents, we're also not supporting elders. We're not, you know, we're not holding everybody together in a net. So whether we want to be in that net or not, we are the nonexistent net. Okay, that got away from me. You know, but that's what it means to live in a community. Right? It's to be bound together. And we thrive together. Or not. When we make it easy for everyone to access what they need and what they want. Like cinnamon in my coffee, I don't need cinnamon in my coffee. I just wanted it. When we make that possible. We make it easier to experience joy and pleasure. And that moves us all toward liberation from those systems of oppression.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Absolutely. And this is really just making me think of adrienne maree brown's words that we talked about early early, right Episode Two on pleasure. We talked about big p pleasure and joy drops. You know, she said, "pleasure is a measure of freedom". It's a way that we can act of our own accord in service to ourselves, despite systems of oppression telling us that pleasure is unimportant, or doesn't matter. And of course, capitalism would say that pleasure is important. So here's this thing you need to buy, right?
Larissa Parson:Oh, it's really fancy cinnamon.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:They're really good cinnamon, the one that's expensive, you know? But we're not talking about. We're talking about us --going back to the noticing, right?-- noticing what are these pieces that give us pleasure? Because we're noticing that they do. Being told this is the thing that will fix it for you or will bring you pleasure.
Larissa Parson:Yes, yeah. Yeah. Um, let me quote myself, please. A pleasure is it is a state of liberation that we can access because it can exist within ourselves, exists within community, and it can exist outside of the systems of oppression that deny us our humanity. Yes. So, yes, capitalism tells you to buy that cinnamon the really expensive cinnamon. Yep. And so yes, systems of oppression exist. And we can get to liberation because of our right people, and because of our ability to sit with the ambiguity that capitalism tells me, I want the fancy cinnamon. And I just have regular cinnamon, and it still tastes good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Because it's cinnamon
Larissa Parson:because it's cinnamon!
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Right? We're not talking about different kinds of cheese.[laughter] So anyway, I got distracted for a second, but like it is cinnamon, right? Like, and there may be that person out there who's like, oh, yeah, this is not Madagascar. That's vanilla. But this is this kind of cinnamon. This is
Larissa Parson:Ceylon! Ceylon! Yes! You know, but it's fine. It's fine. Yeah, I mean, so like to maybe take it away from food and cinnamon for just a minute. Pleasure, community, right people, titration, little joy drops. All of these things help us sit with this dichotomy, or this binary idea. Which is not about I mean... this idea that we don't have to be in the binary of like, yes, systems of oppression exist. And I'm okay with being in this ambiguous place. And I can have joy, even as I resist those systems. Even as I choose things that are pushing back against those systems, I get to have joy on the way to that because if I don't, it's not fun. Like life is not good. I don't choose that. So to back it up just a little bit to the idea of body liberation. And Sonya Renee Taylor's radical self love. Like, this is slow. Radical self love doesn't happen at first sight. titration and small steps, get us there slowly. But dialing into pleasure and dialing into joy and discovering who our right people are. Remember, our right people feel good to us. We feel the rightness in our bodies. Knowing all that means we can get to a sense of liberation in our bodies. And then if we can feel that on the individual embodied level, then those ripples move out, it becomes a lot easier to shift our focus to the culture as a whole, it becomes a lot easier because we're like, oh, okay, my body had cinnamon today. And that felt really good. And I want everybody to have really good cinnamon in their coffee if they want it. And if they don't want it, they don't have to have it. That's that, like, we get to choose? Yeah, we get to choose.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I get to choose.
Larissa Parson:Um where was I gonna go with that. I know. I'm like, I want to have like, let's
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm sorry. talk about choice. And let's talk autonomy.[laughter] I just feel really strongly, like we get to choose! We get to choose!
Larissa Parson:So wait, well, let's say something about that. Because I think that's a really important part of what we've been talking about, Elizabeth. We get to choose and and liberation is being given a choice. Wait, not being given. Having a choice. And recognizing that we have a choice. So if we're able to get free on that individual level, then we recognize and move to change the systems that have been holding us back. So if we again, if we say oh, there's white supremacy culture, telling me that I need to yell at this person for being racist. Isn't that weird white supremacy culture is telling me to yell at them? Yeah, so. A little bit of like, pause, getting curious, do I need to yell at them? Do I need to have a conversation? Is this somebody that I need to focus on? Or is there another way to work on changing this particular structural problem? Is this an individual thing for me to do with this one person? Maybe? Or do I not have the resources- internal resources, support system resources- to do this today. So when we are able to get curious and notice that kind of stuff, then we get to have pleasure through our lives daily, not just every once in a while when we go on that big vacation, which as we know leads to a big letdown. Right? But daily, like it gets to be something we live. And we get to make change, either in big ripples when we have the capacity for it, or little tiny ripples. And that's what it's all about.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And we get to choose.
Larissa Parson:and we get to choose.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Maybe it's a big ripple day. And maybe it's a small ripple day. And maybe I have capacity to do this piece today. But I might not at other points. I think the choice piece can be really helpful to remember, because there's going to be a lot that we don't have choice around.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Because there's a lot that we don't have choice around, it feels really good to have some choice around certain things or whatever those things are. And for, especially for our trauma survivors right out there, right. Choice is something that we have. There's control there. And control is power and power is safety for many trauma survivors. So all of
Larissa Parson:These are choices that we can make. And these bits are things that are options, right? Are choices, yes, all of these bits, these big picture bits of the tools. And that's the sum up of where we're at. These are choices that we can make. when people try to take our way or take away our choices, we feel powerless. So I don't know, I want to come up with something brilliant, like let's get out there and start taking our choices back. Yes. Well, I like to choose pleasure and choose joy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes. Because I think that...that's a great sum up because it's something that we can choose. You know, we can choose the cinnamon in the coffee. We can choose to do this little piece of -- as someone said who was listening to the podcast told me-- of taking the candle out of the packaging, and just lighting the candle instead of saving it for a better day or a different occasion. Or I've always wondered about, you know, saving the good china. Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, wow, no, like, let's use that right now. Because it's so damn beautiful. Like, this is gorgeous. Let's use it all the time." Or I've taken out the sweater that I especially love. I'm not gonna save it. I'm just gonna wear it.
Larissa Parson:Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes, let's choose pleasure.
Larissa Parson:Let's choose pleasure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:And speaking of pleasure, let's talk about what we're eating this week. And may I start? Because clearly, I'm fixated on food. I like to talk about food.
Larissa Parson:You are SO ready to talk about food. I love it. Yes, this is a choice we get to make. And this is, can I just make a little tiny digression before we hear about food? I'm excited for it? Because I know a little bit about what you're going to talk about. I can't wait to hear about it. I mean, can we when we're talking about choice, this is one of those places where people get into power struggles with kids all the time, because food is one of the things we can choose. Everybody can choose whether they want whether they're going to eat or not what's presented to them. And yes, that what is presented what you have available to eat totally varies on lots depends on lots of circumstances. Let's be real about that. Yeah, and you get to choose and so you are choosing some delights this week. Tell me about it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:I'm in a Christmas theme. And I have many sweets that are either at my house or headed my way which I'm very much excited about. I have these chocolate covered pretzels that are shaped like Christmas trees that taste like mint. They are green. It's like a chocolate that's like dyed green or something. I don't even know what's going on there with the ingredients list but they're snappy. And they're pepperminty and it's quite the nice little crisp in your mouth which I love. I also got some cranberry orange biscotti and sometimes biscotti can be really --I mean it should generally be crunchy--but sometimes all you taste is crunch or it tastes a little bit like old. No no this cranberry orange biscotti is fantastic. And I love it and I have a little bit leftover and probably I'm not going to be get more sadly but I'm enjoying it very much with a little bit of tea. And then I have coming next week, some gingerbread cake. I know from Strong Arm though, so maybe it's not too late to have it in your CSA. It has a lemon glaze on it. And we ordered this last year from Strong Arm and it was knock your socks off. And I love gingerbread. And I don't-- I love to cook and bake,--do anything with dough. Dough is too scary. So I do nothing with dough. So gingerbread is nothing I will ever touch. But I'm going to have a little bit of gingerbread. And I'm going to put a little bit of --Rhonda from Chez Moi Bakery does an incredible lemon curd. She of the famous rum cake that some of us know in Durham. She's amazing. And she does a lemon curd that is fantastic and has an unbelievable shelf life.--and I will put it with the gingerbread and it'll be delightful. And that is coming my way next.
Larissa Parson:Mmm. That sounds delicious. I'm coming over to your house.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:And I'm eating all your food.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:All of it. Join me.
Larissa Parson:So you said you do nothing with dough. I baked bread yesterday for the first time in like five years. It was a disaster.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Okay, but you tried it.
Larissa Parson:I'm not giving up. I bought enough flour that I can try again. So maybe one of the things I'll be eating is another attempt. I think I didn't do a good job with it. I usually do it completely by hand. I tried to use my stand mixer and it was just like, I didn't know how to do it right with that thing. So I'm gonna do it the right way. When I'm less tired. More resourced. Let's see what else have I been eating? Again, as always have no idea what's coming to me this afternoon from the CSA. So we'll see maybe there's gingerbread in there. I don't know.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Maybe next week though, because mine is coming next week.
Larissa Parson:Oh, you know, we haven't done the holiday ordering. Oh, yeah. So maybe that's why, mental note. Until now. Maybe this weekend is when I order that. Anyway, so last weekend, though, I had a fabulous food experience. And this is one of those like, Your right people make everything taste better experiences.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Always.
Larissa Parson:Right? Um, I got to meet up with one of those people who I have both right people and relationship connections with it depends on the context of what we're doing. My friend Deb Malkin, who is phenomenal pain coach. She's amazing. And we went to Nuvotaco in Durham, which I love. But I never get to go and just have tacos since the pandemic started. Because it's not like I'm just going to Target and get myself a taco. Because those two go together in my brain. So I had this fried liver taco, which I love. I don't love liver. It's really good for my body. My body really likes it. And it was just like, it was perfect. It was so good. It was just-It's crispy. It's very, very, very crispy. So you don't get that grossness. And. And then there was like, there were these two tacos and we were sitting in the sun. I also had a duck, a duck taco, which was great. I'm sorry, vegetarians. I live with one. I'm sorry. My body really needs meat. But we were sitting in the sun and we were having this conversation. It was just one of those moments where I'm like, this is almost too much fun. And I don't care because I know that this is part of the wave of being in life like, Oh, this is just like so exquisite. I don't want to stop that kind of fun. And we went and got coffee at Cocoa Cinnamon and walked around for a while. It was like one of those Durham type days.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Yes.
Larissa Parson:And it was beautiful. So that's what I was eating and...
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Delightful.
Larissa Parson:Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Larissa and I are so grateful. And just frankly blown away by all of the support that we've received from all of you. Over the past four months or three--we've been talking about it for four months--that you have shown us. So you've shared Wondermine. You've turned other people on to it. You follow us on social media, you've done all the things of support. And we are so grateful and just feel very warmed up by all of the love that you have shown us. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I think we looked at one point --not "we" Elizabeth -- a couple of days ago when it was over 200 downloads and that's so cool. I have no concept if that's good or bad. We don't put any... we are non binary here we are. So, we are not going to put it in that kind of framework. I think 200 is a really awesome number. And thank you all for your support.
Larissa Parson:I can't really add anything to that. Yeah, I know it's over 200 Yeah, I didn't. I also did not look this morning at the crack of dawn to see because I was busy with my coffee. But thank you all so much for listening and for all of your feedback. And yes, we got that message that you want us to do a books episode. It's coming. It's in the works. It's gonna happen. Yeah. 2022 Sometime Yeah, yep, teaser. So yes. So,
Elizabeth M. Johnson:Love it. We are grateful every time you share Wondermine with friends. Follow us on Instagram at Wonderminepodcast, write us a review and that will help others find us.
Larissa Parson:Yep. And we're just so delighted you've been listening. If you want to find out when that episode's gonna come out you better keep following us over there on Instagram. And that's all we got to say today. Thank you all so much for listening
